Did I deserve this

[madjek]

I will explain title after some replies. I was in 75 buy-in live tourney. Got AJ is small blind. 3 limps in front of me. I had 25bb stack. Thought about shoving but AJo ,Idk, maybe I should of. I just complete , figure I'll see flop, bb is reg who I've seen raise big on his bb with marginal hands. Blinds were 400/800 , bb raises to 3800, folds around to me. I think he's just trying to take pot, I call. Flop is 762 rainbow. I check, he waits, checks. I will wait to post my thoughts on his betting as I want to see everyone else's thoughts first. Turn is 2. I check He bets 6000, about 2/3 s pot. I call, river is 4, no flush on board, goes check, bet 9000, putting me allin. My question is what do you see from his play, some things seemed glaring to me, just want to see if I was justified. I know I could of played differently but just curious what thoughts are to what he had. I will finish story after few replies

 

[Pickat]

I think I would've folded to the 6000 bet on the turn . I would put him on a pp or A rag that paired the board . Either way I would feel I was behind and fold . I'm interested to know what happened .

 

[madjek]

I think I would've folded to the 6000 bet on the turn . I would put him on a pp or A rag that paired the board . Either way I would feel I was behind and fold . I'm interested to know what happened .

I would of thought this if the bet was on the flop, but when he checked the flop, on that board, there was no way imo. With 762 flop, you don't want to see any more cards if you caught a piece of it or if you had pp. He's not going to give me a free card if he has A7,A6,A2, 88,99, even 55, 44, 33, I think would bet, try to take down before big card hits turn. Soon as he checked that flop, I'm thinking he missed, or hit it big, 77,66, or 22, and hoping I hit something so he can get value. Those were my thoughts after flops action.

 

[Bozovicdj]

I will explain title after some replies. I was in 75 buy-in live tourney. Got AJ is small blind. 3 limps in front of me. I had 25bb stack. Thought about shoving but AJo ,Idk, maybe I should of. I just complete , figure I'll see flop, bb is reg who I've seen raise big on his bb with marginal hands. Blinds were 400/800 , bb raises to 3800, folds around to me. I think he's just trying to take pot, I call. Flop is 762 rainbow. I check, he waits, checks. I will wait to post my thoughts on his betting as I want to see everyone else's thoughts first. Turn is 2. I check He bets 6000, about 2/3 s pot. I call, river is 4, no flush on board, goes check, bet 9000, putting me allin. My question is what do you see from his play, some things seemed glaring to me, just want to see if I was justified. I know I could of played differently but just curious what thoughts are to what he had. I will finish story after few replies

Pre-flop: Don't limp AJo in the SB, It doesn't play that well postflop, cause if you don't hit A or a J it is very hard to continue playing. That being said either fold it or make a big squeeze bet to take the pot right there.
When Villain makes a bet, I still wouldn't just call with AJo. Either shove or fold, since you don't want to be heads-up OOP with a hand that doesn't connect often and is hard to play with. At the same time, shoving pre-flop over Villain's bet is kind of bad decision too, as it really doesn't make much sense to take that line (limp-shoving from SB) with any hand. For that reason, that we can get called by some weird hands like pocket 33, I would probably fold pre, when facing aggression from the villain.

Flop: I can see more pocket pairs 22-77 in your range then opponent's. I am guessing that villain had the same idea which is why he checked back, not wanting to be check-raised. I do somewhat agree with you that he shouldn't have overpairs that he checks on the flop.

Turn: That is why I would check-shove the turn. You just have sets in that spot all the time as it is ok and more likely to limp-call a big bet from SB with hands like 55/66/77 then it is with AJo.

But, since you called, and V still made a bet on the river, I would just fold. You haven't represented any real hand, so V can bet river with almost anything. It is hard to have him beat, while it was possible to make him fold some better hands with check-shoving the turn.

If you had been aggressive at any point, you might have got him to fold AQ/AK, small pocket pairs like 33, 44, 55. If he is LAG player, he might have made a squeeze pre-flop with 89s or 9Ts. All these hands fold to your aggression. But since you showed weakness, you can not really put him on a certain range or a hand and call the river thinking you have the best hand.

 

[AJantwan]

I'm thinking that on the turn, the guy is either bluffing, has a so-so pocket pair, has a 2, so just made trips, or has a hand similar to yours. So okay, that's a pretty wide range, but I think there's at best a 50/50 chance that you're ahead. While that would technically give you correct pot odds to call, this is a tournament. The chips you might win are not equal to the chips you might lose. With so much uncertainty and not even having a pair or a draw, this is not where I would put up a big fight. Tournaments aren't like that, IMO.

 

[puzzlefish]

You have no information to go on in this hand due to the passive betting. You also have no story to tell about your own hand. AJ is not great to play from SB and since you missed the flop and turn, a fold would be the best decision. You're pretty much hoping to beat KQ, QJ, and air that should not be played from BB.

 

[madjek]

Ok, as far as my play, yes I played pretty weak. But I felt the board was perfect to read his hand. As I said, his check on flop made me think either he missed, didn't want check raised, or he hit big, prob set and wants to let me Hit something so he can get some value from it. His bet on turn, after board pairs, didn't feel like he was value betting a big hand at all anymore. Felt to me like he wanted to take it down then. I later felt , as was mentioned above in another post, that at this point I should of shoved after his bet. As played though, when river was yet again a small card, his bet just seemed like he was hoping for fold. I just couldn't put him on anything but a bluff, even AK has showdown value at that pt imo. I just really felt he had KQ, and said that as I called with my remaining chips only having A high. Everyone at table shook there head in disbelief as I collected my chips after he turned over KJ. He announced to table, " guess you can't bluff a bad player". I admit I could of played it better, but I thought I had good read on hand and think he is one that played it badly, once checking flop, and with the cards that followed, his bluff wasn't believable imo

 

[Pickat]

More power to you . Maybe you just had a good read on that guy from his previous play . I wouldn't have been able to call those bets . Good job . And F his comment at the end of the hand because it was you stacking the chips .

 

[LotharMcDowner]

Pre-flop: Don't limp AJo in the SB, It doesn't play that well postflop, cause if you don't hit A or a J it is very hard to continue playing. That being said either fold it or make a big squeeze bet to take the pot right there.
When Villain makes a bet, I still wouldn't just call with AJo. Either shove or fold, since you don't want to be heads-up OOP with a hand that doesn't connect often and is hard to play with. At the same time, shoving pre-flop over Villain's bet is kind of bad decision too, as it really doesn't make much sense to take that line (limp-shoving from SB) with any hand. For that reason, that we can get called by some weird hands like pocket 33, I would probably fold pre, when facing aggression from the villain.

Flop: I can see more pocket pairs 22-77 in your range then opponent's. I am guessing that villain had the same idea which is why he checked back, not wanting to be check-raised. I do somewhat agree with you that he shouldn't have overpairs that he checks on the flop.

Turn: That is why I would check-shove the turn. You just have sets in that spot all the time as it is ok and more likely to limp-call a big bet from SB with hands like 55/66/77 then it is with AJo.

But, since you called, and V still made a bet on the river, I would just fold. You haven't represented any real hand, so V can bet river with almost anything. It is hard to have him beat, while it was possible to make him fold some better hands with check-shoving the turn.

If you had been aggressive at any point, you might have got him to fold AQ/AK, small pocket pairs like 33, 44, 55. If he is LAG player, he might have made a squeeze pre-flop with 89s or 9Ts. All these hands fold to your aggression. But since you showed weakness, you can not really put him on a certain range or a hand and call the river thinking you have the best hand.

Totally agree, and well said. You have to protect your hand. By flatting his raise you gained no information and given that you were in bad position, you basically were drawing dead to J high board...Even that could have been disastrous if he has a high PP. You bet big preflop, the times that the BB will have a strong enough hand to 3bet are lower than the times he will fold. Unlikely he just calls a big bet with a monster with players left to act behind him. If he 3bets, you probably dump unless you put him on medium PP (even then its a flip). The main thing is not putting yourself in a position to lose big.

 

[Bozovicdj]

Ok, as far as my play, yes I played pretty weak. But I felt the board was perfect to read his hand. As I said, his check on flop made me think either he missed, didn't want check raised, or he hit big, prob set and wants to let me Hit something so he can get some value from it. His bet on turn, after board pairs, didn't feel like he was value betting a big hand at all anymore. Felt to me like he wanted to take it down then. I later felt , as was mentioned above in another post, that at this point I should of shoved after his bet. As played though, when river was yet again a small card, his bet just seemed like he was hoping for fold. I just couldn't put him on anything but a bluff, even AK has showdown value at that pt imo. I just really felt he had KQ, and said that as I called with my remaining chips only having A high. Everyone at table shook there head in disbelief as I collected my chips after he turned over KJ. He announced to table, " guess you can't bluff a bad player". I admit I could of played it better, but I thought I had good read on hand and think he is one that played it badly, once checking flop, and with the cards that followed, his bluff wasn't believable imo

I understand your reasoning, but that is exactly why it was necessary to check-shove the turn.
If he really is bluffing, what hand is he going to do that with, considering the squeeze pre-flop?
My guess is suited connectors 89s, 9Ts, JTs, QJs, Probably KT+ and a lot of AX, probably ATs+ and AQo+. Now, I didn't count pocket pairs in, cause it is less likely he checks the flop back with pocket pairs.

Now the question is, what do you do if any card 8-K hits the river, Jack excluded. Do you fold the river, because his bluffing hands may have hit that and are now winning?

My point is, you got lucky that he had exactly K high and that river was a pure blank. Shoving turn would maybe get Villain to fold better Ax hands, maybe some small pocket pairs 33-55, and definitely all the bluffs.

Also, don't mind dumb comments! Last live MTT I played, player to my right went all in against me 4 times in 15minutes, and every time I had him dominated and won the hands. Later during the tournament, I ran a bluff, a very good one too since, got called by some ridiculous hand from a 3rd person, only to hear at the end of the hand grandpa saying: "dumb guy wasting my chips. such a stupid play". I tilted instantly and busted hour later or so.. Just try not to give in to the sh*t talk!

 

[Poker_Mike]

Ok, as far as my play, yes I played pretty weak. But I felt the board was perfect to read his hand. As I said, his check on flop made me think either he missed, didn't want check raised, or he hit big, prob set and wants to let me Hit something so he can get some value from it. His bet on turn, after board pairs, didn't feel like he was value betting a big hand at all anymore. Felt to me like he wanted to take it down then. I later felt , as was mentioned above in another post, that at this point I should of shoved after his bet. As played though, when river was yet again a small card, his bet just seemed like he was hoping for fold. I just couldn't put him on anything but a bluff, even AK has showdown value at that pt imo. I just really felt he had KQ, and said that as I called with my remaining chips only having A high. Everyone at table shook there head in disbelief as I collected my chips after he turned over KJ. He announced to table, " guess you can't bluff a bad player". I admit I could of played it better, but I thought I had good read on hand and think he is one that played it badly, once checking flop, and with the cards that followed, his bluff wasn't believable imo

LOL....I wasn't sure where your story was going at first.

So, you have history and a read on the original preflop raiser, who happens to be on your left. Fantastic !

I don't hate having a read on a player and calling him down on every street for the win.

It sounds like you devised that plan when he checked the flop and then bet heavily on the turn?

I also wouldn't hate check shove on turn. Why give his KQ a free card to catch something.


I guess my criticism is what were you hoping to achieve with limping AJ OOP ? Trap the table with an Ace on the flop or turn when you are OOP?

Heh heh - he's a player that seems ignorant that he gives off tells and his comment wasn't about you - it was about himself.


Stack those chips and smile smile smile.​

Good luck !

 

[Poker Orifice]

Pre-flop: Don't limp AJo in the SB, It doesn't play that well postflop, cause if you don't hit A or a J it is very hard to continue playing. That being said either fold it or make a big squeeze bet to take the pot right there.
When Villain makes a bet, I still wouldn't just call with AJo. Either shove or fold, since you don't want to be heads-up OOP with a hand that doesn't connect often and is hard to play with. At the same time, shoving pre-flop over Villain's bet is kind of bad decision too, as it really doesn't make much sense to take that line (limp-shoving from SB) with any hand. For that reason, that we can get called by some weird hands like pocket 33, I would probably fold pre, when facing aggression from the villain.

Flop: I can see more pocket pairs 22-77 in your range then opponent's. I am guessing that villain had the same idea which is why he checked back, not wanting to be check-raised. I do somewhat agree with you that he shouldn't have overpairs that he checks on the flop.

Turn: That is why I would check-shove the turn. You just have sets in that spot all the time as it is ok and more likely to limp-call a big bet from SB with hands like 55/66/77 then it is with AJo.

But, since you called, and V still made a bet on the river, I would just fold. You haven't represented any real hand, so V can bet river with almost anything. It is hard to have him beat, while it was possible to make him fold some better hands with check-shoving the turn.

If you had been aggressive at any point, you might have got him to fold AQ/AK, small pocket pairs like 33, 44, 55. If he is LAG player, he might have made a squeeze pre-flop with 89s or 9Ts. All these hands fold to your aggression. But since you showed weakness, you can not really put him on a certain range or a hand and call the river thinking you have the best hand.

Great analysis! Spot on with all of it imo. I believe there's lots to be gained from it if people read it.
My initial thoughts about preflop play... after OP has first limped along with multiple limpers & then facing a 4.5x raise while OOP... (& while on 25bb's) was to just get it in.... BUT just as you have mentioned, how believable is that? ie. you're going to get looked up by stuff (like 33-66) that might otherwise be folding. I mean who traps (AA, KK, AKo+) by Limp-shoving in SB once there's three other limpers in the hand ahead of you. Umm... nobody!

I'd have to agree with villain here in the hand... he fk'd up. Can't make a station fold.

 

[madjek]

Thanks for all the replies (at least most of them ) . As I said, not saying I couldn't of played it better, my point was villain' s check of flop saved my bad play and let me get lucky, that was my pt. Thought his play gave away his hand and allowed me to get the win. As far as limping in sb, maybe you all can help me understand, AJo isn't really that strong, but i don't see why you'd just fold, 400 more into a 3600 pot, were limped pots are common, not like I was playing main event and every pot is 3 bet. I see raising with it, but likely get called, and again, I'm oop. Believe me I'm not a " .. station" and if villain paid any attention to other players he'd know that as we've played together often enough, if he bet anything on flop, I fold

 

[Bozovicdj]

Thanks for all the replies (at least most of them ) . As I said, not saying I couldn't of played it better, my point was villain' s check of flop saved my bad play and let me get lucky, that was my pt. Thought his play gave away his hand and allowed me to get the win. As far as limping in sb, maybe you all can help me understand, AJo isn't really that strong, but i don't see why you'd just fold, 400 more into a 3600 pot, were limped pots are common, not like I was playing main event and every pot is 3 bet. I see raising with it, but likely get called, and again, I'm oop. Believe me I'm not a " .. station" and if villain paid any attention to other players he'd know that as we've played together often enough, if he bet anything on flop, I fold

AJo is not an extremely good hand like QQ+ AQs+ AKo, but it is still far ahead of all the limping range of your average poker player. That is why you need to make people pay while you are ahead. That should be the whole point of this game. Value your hand.

If you do decide to limp, and the flop is J97 how confident are you to bet the flop OOP, or to call other's bets? every limp hand gets there - J9, 97, 86, even QT would have high equity vs AJ etc. Limping can get you to win very small pots (everyone missed and folds to your bet post-flop) or makes you lose big pots (you hit a piece, but some other limper hit the monster).

By your standards, what if you had 96s in the SB. You get the same "great" odds to call from SB and limp along with others but the hand is crap. Let's say you are in the BU position, 3 limpers before you, you have T8o - is it a limp again cause you have "great" odds?!

That's not how you win at poker, and trust me, limping in tournaments is far far more punishing then limping in cash games. Just don't do it

 

[suwik]

More power to you . Maybe you just had a good read on that guy from his previous play . I wouldn't have been able to call those bets . Good job . And F his comment at the end of the hand because it was you stacking the chips .

 

[Dchoyt82]

Good read. Personally I will say this, for future reference, it is best to lay it all out their at the beginning.
It's too much work having to piece the puzzle together. I mean I also really like Bold, straight forward & hate sugar coating or beating around the bush.
But for real you made a good read. I also have to say their are some really smart players in here because I was quite blown away by their analysis

 

[finaltable1]

Sorry I've read just the 1st message and replying to it.
In general, by my opinion, limping is good only in one single case - when you have a monster pre-flop hand and you're in early position, for example you're holding KK in UTG1-2 AND THERE ARE SEVERAL LOOSE-AGGRESIVE PLAYERS BEHIND YOU. so... you know that there will be a raise, and you're limping to prepare a trap.

Bet or fold pre-flop in mid-late positions. Quite simple isn't it? Build pot and collect info with bet, or fold and don't waste yours and other players time.

25BB stack isn't good for any type of speculations, unless you're in the money already or average stack in the tourney is 15BB, and you're a chipleader...

Both preflop and at 7high flop the best thing you can do is to decide if you're going all-in vs your opponent(s).
- If not - then fold as soon as possible.
- If yes - then... BB + several limpers + ante = 4bb pot. You have 25bb stack and AJ vs 4bb pot, i belive that it's EV+ decision to go all-in pre-flop at SB if average stack is 60bb+ and opponents are tight players. If opponents are loose and average stack is 30-50bb, then pushing all-in w AJ isn't a wise decision, well it could be a good move with 10BB stack or less.

In your case you've represented weakness with medium pre-flop and weak post-flop hand. You've been calling with nothing after representing weakness, and that's a big mistake. You're beating only bluffs with your hand, and you have to depend on your reading skills in this case. In your place I would have folded pre-flop vs tight player or on flop vs mid player or pushed all-in vs agro-bluffer.

Ohh so he had KJ...
You've been lucky or had some quality info on that player.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Sorry I've read just the 1st message .

Maybe you should read some of the other's.... might gain something there. :deal:

 

[redmast]

I wouldn't call him a raise and fold. Maybe he got a set.

 

[Mortis]

No one "deserves" or does not deserve anything in poker. Whether you take or give a bad beat... Does not matter. Analyze your play, learn from it, and move on.

I guess that's pretty much what you're doing here; analyzing your play. I guess I'm just not fond of the word "deserving" in poker. It's a game of odds.