cheating at live STT

[Poker_Mike]

So, it's a live STT.

We are down to three. Pays 1 spot - winner-take-all.

I just won a hand that made me the big stack.

The player I just beat says to the other player, "Let's get rid of him (referring to me) and we'll make a deal."

Other player actually responds, "Ok."

And I lose my mind over the overt collusion.

What are my options via TDA rules?

What would I want to happen here? 1-round penalty and scoop the blinds for 2 hands?

They were kind of laughing when they said it - and frankly I ended up winning the thing anyways (even with 2/3 of the field colluding against me!)...

What would you do in this situation?

Thanks.

 

[NCDaddy]

Well, I mean....technically if they're not discussing hands or how to play hands is it reaaaalllly collusion? I mean, even if you called them out on it and brought it to someone's attention, they laughed so they could claim they were just joking. If there weren't obvious signs of actually cheating against you like chip dumping or the like, I'm not sure you have a case?! I dunno, I'd probably just either a) let it go and play or b) offer a 3 way chop based on chip count if you really thought you were in a disadvantaged position

 

[Poker_Mike]

Well, I mean....technically if they're not discussing hands or how to play hands is it reaaaalllly collusion? I mean, even if you called them out on it and brought it to someone's attention, they laughed so they could claim they were just joking. If there weren't obvious signs of actually cheating against you like chip dumping or the like, I'm not sure you have a case?! I dunno, I'd probably just either a) let it go and play or b) offer a 3 way chop based on chip count if you really thought you were in a disadvantaged position

Thanks for responding so quickly.

You make it sound like it's my word against theirs - as if this is some ambiguous opinion.

Don't forget that the dealer is a witness to all of this.

And, they both admitted that they understood how I could interpret the situation as collusion as they both quickly dropped their smiles.

I mean the other guy actually said, "Ok." to the proposal...lol!!! I don't even think he needs to accept the proposal verbally for it to still be collusion.

Sigh....aspirin and Jack Daniels in that order.

 

[Jillychemung]

What would you do in this situation?

I would ask the dealer to call the floor and level a complaint. There should be a penalty assessed as per TDA 64 & 65 but the TDA language conflicts each other, from DQ to warning.

Now most floors will be hard pressed to level a penalty here especially if the other 2 would say that they were just joking yada yada and who knows how well the dealer would stand up as most hate to get involved in situations like this. Plus asking the floor to have security review footage to see if any audio was recorded will just put off most floors.

So most likely you'd have had a wishy washy floor with a noncommittal dealer and the result would be a warning.

 

[Jon Poker]

I understand the aspect of collusion and it certainly making a difference in the outcome of a game. I do not think there was collusion taking place here.

Likely the two were complete strangers and since you had just gained the chip lead - seems like a joking remark was made between the short stacks to "take down" the big stack at the table and split the money. I dont think I would have taken this to heart myself. I mean come on...lets think logically for a second...in all reality who is going to sit there in front of the dealer and his opponents and out loud ask the short stack next to him to work together to take out the chip leader so they can split the pot? Such a thing would not only be very ignorant, but could wind up having serious repercussions. IE: being banned from that casino.

Certainly no one likes to be cheated out of a cash - but again, I dont think that was happening here. Even if it were the case you are the bigger stack - would shift gears here from aggressive to HYPER aggressive and put these guys into some terrible spots. Doyle had it right years ago when he said "the key to no limit is to put a man to a decision for all of his chips" - these words ring true today. No one wants to bubble a tournament - these guys are two eliminations away from the money - do you think either of them will be eager to risk busting out before the other?

In the end I guess it played out the way you wanted it to and you won it all. Congrats there BTW -- but overall I think a joking remark was taken out of context here and I can totally see how it would come across that way - for me though, I just think it was a bit of an overreaction.

 

[MikeCarasone]

I would ask the dealer if he heard there plans to play as a team in order to win. If the dealer is competent he likely will notice any collusion. Depending on the response from the players and dealer I would get the floor involved. It’s obviously going to be tough to prove cheating (I don’t think they cheated yet) when all they did was talk about a possible attempt against you, rather than outright collusion. Just by voicing yourself they may back down and realize they are now being watched. You can offer an ICM chop to avoid going further. Personally, I wouldn’t make any cheating accusations just just yet. I would ask the players if they seriously plan on colluding and cheating? That may end it there, if not then ask the dealer to get involved himself (ask if he also heard there conversation ) if he’s not responsive you should inform the floor of what you overheard.

 

[Poker_Mike]

Thanks for talking me off the ledge!

I appreciate the feedback and support.

You have all mentioned good points that I thought about while I was sitting there live.

I chose to continue playing because it was a turbo, and as mentioned, the floor would level a warning at best.

FYI for the NC guy - players agreeing to act as a team is collusion - something to remember if he ever gets into this situation. They don't have to be talking about their hands or chip dump for this to happen. This kind of stuff can really matter when you are close to the money or pay jumps.

I believe the guy that just lost the hand was trying to act like the table captain and somehow regain momentum through some "power" words. Still, the words he chose and the agreement....​

When I am approached like this at the table or away from it my response is the same, "I don't want to collude." When the shortstack agreed by saying, "OK." they deserved my loud arm-waving response. Which, may have stolen the table captain's thunder and re-asserted my momentum.

For the record I would not offer an ICM chop in this situation - I would offer them both 2nd place ($0.00) lol That is more my style.

I guess my interpretation is that the statement was really a sign of desperation from the player (who I did not know - I knew the rest of the table).

Good luck !
​

 

[FrothyGoodness]

It's not technically collusion in the terms of the floor needing to be introduced. I mean sure you can be pissed that they are attempting to double team you but the only play they'd have without saying each others hands outloud is just folding whenever the other is in the hand. If it came down to let's say them saying that and then a break happened and they went somewhere and "talked" about upcoming hands and moves then yes , ring that bell. But as far as a real collusion scenario , its Collusion without it being collusion . I mean what if he just said "hey I'd prefer to be heads up vs you then him" on theory that's a bit of collusion

 

[terryk]

Players make statements to bother/tilt the others,,,, when at the tables,always ask yourself,"why is he saying this?" :hmmmm:

 

[Collin Moshman]

That's a very specific idea: "Let's get rid of the third player and then we can deal." I think it would have been totally appropriate to call over the floor.

But playing it out makes a lot more sense given the winner-take-all structure compared to the more traditional online 50-30-20. If there are payout jumps, they can fold to each other, funnel chips to the shorter stack, and increase their combined equity. In winner-take-all, that doesn't increase their equity. So there are fewer ways for them to easily cheat you out of equity here.

Anyway at best a very inappropriate joke on their part, at worst outright collusion. Great work taking it down and teaching them a lesson!

 

[NCDaddy]

Thanks for responding so quickly.

You make it sound like it's my word against theirs - as if this is some ambiguous opinion.

That was not my intent, at all.

Don't forget that the dealer is a witness to all of this.

Completely understand.

And, they both admitted that they understood how I could interpret the situation as collusion as they both quickly dropped their smiles.

You interpreted. That's the key. All I'm saying is that if you DID call the floor they could claim they were just joking. That's all I meant by that.

My main point in all that is at the end of the day, in this particular situation, what is the floor going to do? Warn them, probably. And, then the dealer would watch for signs like chip dumping, right? I suppose if you truly thought you were at a disadvantage you'd do that to have it on record. I dunno...I probably would've just let it go and play on.

 

[SPANKYSN]

If the dealer heard it, I would ask the dealer, "Is that allowable?", and let the dealer take the lead. I personally think it is collusion...you don't need to see actual emails of intent to know that baseball owners were collectively sticking it to Curt Flood with the Reserve Clause.

 

[Poker_Mike]

I appreciate the feedback.

Trying to learn something from this experience I am struck by how tilted I was over what was said at the table....I really wasn't expecting those words or even the other player accepting the offer. Jeez, if I knew those simple words would tilt my opponent then I might use them!

I am also struck by how many posters on this thread question whether cheating actually occurred. I really was not prepared for those kinds of responses. The only reason I can think of for this is they may be predominantly online players and therefore never "hear" other players colluding. Or, they don't know how to identify cheating - so even if they see it they don't know what it is.

Definition of cheating or colluding could be another interesting thread to start for educational purposes.

Good luck !

 

[emejota23]

It's impossible, there are many cameras, hehehehehe, and yes you can, but it's almost impossible to do it.

 

[Tigroslav]

You should of asked for them to both be forfeited out and you declared the winner and if they refuse get up and leave and post here.

Perhaps before doing that try and get a floor manager or tournament director to observe the gameplay till the end.
If that doesn't work do the above.

 

[Poker_Mike]

You should of asked for them to both be forfeited out and you declared the winner and if they refuse get up and leave and post here.

Perhaps before doing that try and get a floor manager or tournament director to observe the gameplay till the end.
If that doesn't work do the above.

Ha! Thanks for bumping this weirdly painful thread.

I expected the floor to issue a warning to the players.

I had half the chips in the entire field and so I decided to play it out.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Should've stood up, leaned across the table & give them both a good hard SLAP, knocking them out of their chairs. Depending upon what Karens are running the game, don't expect to be back for 10days (weeks, months.. years?)

 

[Pokerpoet2]

To me this sounds more like they were trying to wind you up and get under your skin, obviously it worked, but you proved them both wrong and kept your cool to take them both out, isn't that what Poker is all about?
I was T.D. at my local pub and ran a straight game for years, if I believed any form of cheating was going on in any of the Tournaments I ran, I would stand behind the players and watch for myself.
We did have one case of 2 players colluding in a cash game the lads used to start after being busted out, and these 2 used to turn up late, missing the Tournament, but wanted to be in the cash game, So after I was told what was going on and I witnessed it for myself, The Landlord and myself devised a rule that they could only take part in the cash game if they had played in the League Tournament first.
Knowing we were on to them they stayed away from the pub altogether.
It is very hard to prove that any collusion is going on but there are ways to stop it happening, splitting Friend's up in the early part of a Tournament so they sit on different tables is one option, the weaker player will inevitably go broke first and not enter a cash game without their partner to back them up.
I am sure that if this was happening in your situation, the pair certainly would not have told you outright that this was their intention, and was their idea of a bad joke, laugh it off as you were the Victor here, not the Victim.

When the fun Stops, STOP!

 

[MrrrRock]

plenty of options for them why is not cheating
looks like that one guy was trying to tilt you

 

[fletchdad]

The player I just beat says to the other player, "Let's get rid of him (referring to me) and we'll make a deal."

Other player actually responds, "Ok."

Well, I mean....technically if they're not discussing hands or how to play hands is it reaaaalllly collusion?

Seems that way to me.

 

[Zorba]

Seems that way to me.

Mr too, it's clearly collusion as soon as the 2nd guy said OK.

Not that hard to figure out.

:top:

 

[takinitSLEAZEE]

See, this is why I love my dog because people can be complete dix. It's really sad that folx can't just lose w/some dignity and respect one another. I really like the point where you stated that you won the thing/ticket/sat or whatever. That had to just be karma slapping them in the face in front of everyone. Kudos on the win.
I'm thinking about running down to Austin or Round Rock and playing in some live tournament this weekend, myself. I'll keep my ears open for similar chatter. :driver:

 

[gumelazo]

thats garbage, colussions and cheating