Calling an all in vs Maniac player

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drhousethebest

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playing a deep stack tournament.

I got dealt K/3 of Clouds UTG
its a no too aggressive game where people are limping very often because so many loose players there is not much point on raising.

5 people limp in including me

My stack 58,000 chips
Blinds 1000/500

the flop came 3 of diamonds 10 of clouds Q of clouds
The small blind is a maniac type of player, very loose and aggressive, but very few occasions shows bluffs, he normally have something. He goes all in for about 50,000 chips.

3 more people to act, Im very sure they will fold because even in the flop top pairs, they will not call an all in. So, im sure if I call, will be heads up!

Call or fold?
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Fold pre, fold flop. You are likely flipping a coin for stacks vs the maniac and you can never be truly sure that someone doesn't have QT or some other strong hand behind that can call.

Against A3 you are behind 47% / 53%
Against T7 it flips but you are only slightly ahead 53% / 47%
Against Ac5c you're 51 / 49

He got it all in first so you have no fold equity, there is ICM to consider. This isn't a cash game. Why do you want to flip a coin for essentially your whole stack? No way I'm calling. Also even maniacs show up with monsters sometimes. The times he has QT, T3, Q3, 33, we are in bad shape.
 
TPC

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I assume this is a full table, right? You should be folding this hand UTG and not playing it at all... Ever!
 
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DAVID KEHRER

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I would of never called to begin with thosehands end up getting you busted
 
Propane Goat

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If you're going to limp with that hand then you should at least limp on the button after you've seen what the majority of the table is going to do. Limping UTG means you're putting your chips into the pot with zero information about what anyone else on the table is holding, and makes this the most likely spot that you won't get to see a flop without committing more chips. The exception is if you're limping AA/KK UTG with the intention of baiting a maniac to put in a raise so you can re-raise them.


If there is a maniac at the table then you should consider tightening up your own range, maniacs aren't exempt from getting premium pairs either.
 
TPC

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If you're going to limp with that hand then you should at least limp on the button after you've seen what the majority of the table is going to do. Limping UTG means you're putting your chips into the pot with zero information about what anyone else on the table is holding, and makes this the most likely spot that you won't get to see a flop without committing more chips. The exception is if you're limping AA/KK UTG with the intention of baiting a maniac to put in a raise so you can re-raise them.


If there is a maniac at the table then you should consider tightening up your own range, maniacs aren't exempt from getting premium pairs either.


Stopped reading your post after "If you're going to limp" Never limp! Never play this hand UTG!!!
 
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drhousethebest

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If you're going to limp with that hand then you should at least limp on the button after you've seen what the majority of the table is going to do. Limping UTG means you're putting your chips into the pot with zero information about what anyone else on the table is holding, and makes this the most likely spot that you won't get to see a flop without committing more chips. The exception is if you're limping AA/KK UTG with the intention of baiting a maniac to put in a raise so you can re-raise them.


If there is a maniac at the table then you should consider tightening up your own range, maniacs aren't exempt from getting premium pairs either.

Well, I was following the dynamic of the table, a lot of limpers and I was seeing a lot of flops, I described that. Limping on this dynamic might be better than raising. Lets me explain a little better, lets say I had AK of clouds, I raise to 3000 chips. I will probably get the same amount of calls, including the maniac, he is out of position and he hit the flop, he will do the same play, go all in on the flop.

so what would you do?
Also my imagine on the table, if I call his all in on that spot, rest of people would not call since they will figure I have something strong.

I do not disagree on your opinion and others opinion about limping, in a more aggressive table on a different dynamic I would not limp there, but im playing the players.
 
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drhousethebest

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thank you all for your feedback

I ended up calling his all in,
He show Q9, all he had was top pair with a weak kicker.
His play was not correct neither was mine, I did not hit my draw this time, but I was ahead on percentage by a small margin.

I actually put him on 2 pairs or straight draw
and my only fear was if he had flush draw holding the A of clouds.

His play was so incorrect that did no make sense.

after you guys know the results, what do you think?
 
TPC

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thank you all for your feedback

I ended up calling his all in,
He show Q9, all he had was top pair with a weak kicker.
His play was not correct neither was mine, I did not hit my draw this time, but I was ahead on percentage by a small margin.

I actually put him on 2 pairs or straight draw
and my only fear was if he had flush draw holding the A of clouds.

His play was so incorrect that did no make sense.

after you guys know the results, what do you think?

Still should've never played that hand UTG or ever, unless your HU.
 
oneybiggs

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I disagree here,its what i call positional limp when UTG and is the perfect play(only) in that position.As for the flush draw and bottom pair with his shove,around Q9 was what i put him on ...any better he would have squeezed for a bit more or trapped,but the fact that he pushed showed he didnt want anyone catching a higher pair /flush or straight.The gamble is then decided by how deep you are and what sort of tourney.I mean if you have a hundred more buyins like professional bankroll management would see u have then by all means in that situation i would find it hard not to take the all or nothing gamble.Many would say never limp and never min raise,ive built and won many big pots min raising and trapped many players by limping.Theres a time and a place for everything.Also they say you should never play those cards at all,the flipside is,unless someone is holding pockets your two cards have the exact same chance of hitting.As they say footprints in the sands of time are not made sitting down,youve gotta be in to win.Gl with your nxt game and gamble ;):icon_thum
 
SPANKYSN

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I agree with those who said you should have folded pre flop. Limping with nothing usually costs you in the end...yes, sometimes you hit and surprise the others, but mainly it is a donation to someone else's pot.
 
TPC

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I disagree here,its what i call positional limp when UTG and is the perfect play(only) in that position.As for the flush draw and bottom pair with his shove,around Q9 was what i put him on ...any better he would have squeezed for a bit more or trapped,but the fact that he pushed showed he didnt want anyone catching a higher pair /flush or straight.The gamble is then decided by how deep you are and what sort of tourney.I mean if you have a hundred more buyins like professional bankroll management would see u have then by all means in that situation i would find it hard not to take the all or nothing gamble.Many would say never limp and never min raise,ive built and won many big pots min raising and trapped many players by limping.Theres a time and a place for everything.Also they say you should never play those cards at all,the flipside is,unless someone is holding pockets your two cards have the exact same chance of hitting.As they say footprints in the sands of time are not made sitting down,youve gotta be in to win.Gl with your nxt game and gamble ;):icon_thum

You have no position when you're UTG. You're name for it is just as stupid as limping with that hand UTG!
 
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c0rnBr34d

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thank you all for your feedback

I ended up calling his all in,
He show Q9, all he had was top pair with a weak kicker.
His play was not correct neither was mine, I did not hit my draw this time, but I was ahead on percentage by a small margin.

I actually put him on 2 pairs or straight draw
and my only fear was if he had flush draw holding the A of clouds.

His play was so incorrect that did no make sense.

after you guys know the results, what do you think?
I feel the same way I did in my initial post. Fold pre, blinds are valuable in a tournament. Consider ICM. You're first to act anyone can raise behind you. Even if no one raises in the dream scenario which you actually got you're almost never in a great spot. If you flop a 3 and anyone bets what are you going to do? If you flop a K you have to worry about your kicker. If you flop a flush draw you still have to worry about the better flush draw. You're putting chips in hoping to flop a pair + flush draw or two pair or better. This is very rare. And even when it happens like this time, you are still flipping a coin for stacks. Most of the time you're just going to end up losing money limping this hand UTG. How many times can you win a coin flip before going busto? Being able to identify these spots is good. Being the first one to get the chips in the middle when this happens is much better than calling it off though since you will get some folds. In my opinion this is made much worse by the fact that this guy is a maniac who will give you way better spots to take his stack. There's not much skill involved in flipping coins. Take advantage of your skill advantage and pick a better spot IMO.
 
Ronaldo7

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You call K3s UTG, and he is a maniac?? :D
 
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CTLAW

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fold, 50BB is way to big for a all in with that kind of stack
 
oneybiggs

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You have no position when you're UTG. You're name for it is just as stupid as limping with that hand UTG!
I understand your reply but still disagree,limping from UTG gives the option of folding at the cheapest rate after gathering information and is very hard to read as it could be a perfect trap ,also if 33 hit the board you have the element of surprise with unexpected trips.Also the flush draw on the flop gave near coin flip odds proving it wasnt such a bad hand to stay in on.Sure it is a vulnerable position to put yourself in but at the same time its hard to build big pots with premium hands so for me it comes down to the size of the blinds,tournament stage and prize pool...all those in mind it could be worth wasting a big blind on UTG but to play hands this way often requires bet sizing/stack management similar to bankroll management,its then a matter of deciding what ratio fits your style the best and limit yourself to maybe 1 20th or five percent of your stack for playing low starting hands or out of position.That way it reaches a cut off point later in the tourney and is just a matter of self discipline.Unpredictability also diminishes the more you play certain hands certain ways or only play in position with highly predictable bet sizing with opponents easily guessing your range and so on.Another positional limp i was lucky enough to play today was AA in the small blind when the table had folded around.Going to post some screenies just to show off hehe :)
View attachment 259118
Lwa2
Lwa3
Lwa4
Lwa5
and the final result if anyones interested,nice starting position phase two 20k :) 6th place at the moment with over 700 reged,i dont usually play many phased tourneys but im stoked i played this one lol hope im on on the day.
Lwa6
So what i know and refer to as a positional limp in my mind is far from the stupid you see it as,two totally different scenarios but both what i know of as well played positional limps...good luck at the tables.:top:
 
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drhousethebest

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I feel the same way I did in my initial post. Fold pre, blinds are valuable in a tournament. Consider ICM. You're first to act anyone can raise behind you. Even if no one raises in the dream scenario which you actually got you're almost never in a great spot. If you flop a 3 and anyone bets what are you going to do? If you flop a K you have to worry about your kicker. If you flop a flush draw you still have to worry about the better flush draw. You're putting chips in hoping to flop a pair + flush draw or two pair or better. This is very rare. And even when it happens like this time, you are still flipping a coin for stacks. Most of the time you're just going to end up losing money limping this hand UTG. How many times can you win a coin flip before going busto? Being able to identify these spots is good. Being the first one to get the chips in the middle when this happens is much better than calling it off though since you will get some folds. In my opinion this is made much worse by the fact that this guy is a maniac who will give you way better spots to take his stack. There's not much skill involved in flipping coins. Take advantage of your skill advantage and pick a better spot IMO.

It's poker, I agree that on the long run K3 its a bad play, no doubt, but also, the dynamic of the table matters and who you are playing against, that is the difference of poker and any other car game that rely only on luck. I do disagree on the comment: YOU SHOULD NEVER PLAY THOSE CARS UTG, never say never, the right play is the right play no matter what. You need to know when to bluff, you need to know when to call and when to fold!! if you always play A10 or better or poker pairs UTG you will be an easy player to exploit, because good players will easily know how to play against you. every experts say that you need to mix your game a little. So, once in a while you need to limp in with KK, call with any suited car UTG, 4 bet any raise with any two cards in the small blind so people understand that they cannot raise you every time you are in the blinds. Mix your game!! never say never!!
 
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drhousethebest

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I understand your reply but still disagree,limping from UTG gives the option of folding at the cheapest rate after gathering information and is very hard to read as it could be a perfect trap ,also if 33 hit the board you have the element of surprise with unexpected trips.Also the flush draw on the flop gave near coin flip odds proving it wasnt such a bad hand to stay in on.Sure it is a vulnerable position to put yourself in but at the same time its hard to build big pots with premium hands so for me it comes down to the size of the blinds,tournament stage and prize pool...all those in mind it could be worth wasting a big blind on UTG but to play hands this way often requires bet sizing/stack management similar to bankroll management,its then a matter of deciding what ratio fits your style the best and limit yourself to maybe 1 20th or five percent of your stack for playing low starting hands or out of position.That way it reaches a cut off point later in the tourney and is just a matter of self discipline.Unpredictability also diminishes the more you play certain hands certain ways or only play in position with highly predictable bet sizing with opponents easily guessing your range and so on.Another positional limp i was lucky enough to play today was AA in the small blind when the table had folded around.Going to post some screenies just to show off hehe :)
View attachment 259118
View attachment 259119
View attachment 259120
View attachment 259121
View attachment 259122
and the final result if anyones interested,nice starting position phase two 20k :) 6th place at the moment with over 700 reged,i dont usually play many phased tourneys but im stoked i played this one lol hope im on on the day.
View attachment 259123
So what i know and refer to as a positional limp in my mind is far from the stupid you see it as,two totally different scenarios but both what i know of as well played positional limps...good luck at the tables.:top:

Good job on that tournament, what was the final results??
 
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drhousethebest

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If you're going to limp with that hand then you should at least limp on the button after you've seen what the majority of the table is going to do. Limping UTG means you're putting your chips into the pot with zero information about what anyone else on the table is holding, and makes this the most likely spot that you won't get to see a flop without committing more chips. The exception is if you're limping AA/KK UTG with the intention of baiting a maniac to put in a raise so you can re-raise them.


If there is a maniac at the table then you should consider tightening up your own range, maniacs aren't exempt from getting premium pairs either.

I agree that is the standard play, but you need to mix your game a little, specially if the table dynamic is a lot of limpers. People just want to see flops, so we were all seeing flops!! They might limp with AAs as well. That is the table I was playing at, so I played accordingly
 
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