Is "work your way up the ladder" wrong advice?

Spaceman

Spaceman

Legend
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Total posts
1,345
Awards
4
The usual advice for most poker players when they start is "start playing from the lowest limits and work your way up the ladder".

The thing is that in micros most of the time to play profitable you may have to play exactly the opposite than on higher levels. There are a ton of plays that on micros you should bet cause you are going to get called but on a higher level that bet would be costly in the long run cause opponents are smarter and going to bluff more often etc. Like when on a board of 88932 we go check check to the river if I have pp or A10+ I could extract a value bet from someone who would call me with worse. But betting A10+ on the river in higher stakes is suicidal. The same with bluffs. And also how am I supposed to put all the thought in ranges and 3-betting, when someone could 4bet from utg with 69o?

What I am trying to say is that playing the micros long enough isnt it like learning to do something the wrong way? Wouldnt be hard or costly to unlearn all this habits and reads when you move up? Maybe its better to skip them and start on higher level?
 
rocketbox

rocketbox

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 28, 2018
Total posts
27
The usual advice for most poker players when they start is "start playing from the lowest limits and work your way up the ladder".

The thing is that in micros most of the time to play profitable you may have to play exactly the opposite than on higher levels. There are a ton of plays that on micros you should bet cause you are going to get called but on a higher level that bet would be costly in the long run cause opponents are smarter and going to bluff more often etc. Like when on a board of 88932 we go check check to the river if I have pp or A10+ I could extract a value bet from someone who would call me with worse. But betting A10+ on the river in higher stakes is suicidal. The same with bluffs. And also how am I supposed to put all the thought in ranges and 3-betting, when someone could 4bet from utg with 69o?

What I am trying to say is that playing the micros long enough isnt it like learning to do something the wrong way? Wouldnt be hard or costly to unlearn all this habits and reads when you move up? Maybe its better to skip them and start on higher level?





Starting at the micros is a waste of time. You'll just get frustrated with the no-look all-in's and you'll get beat with worse hands constantly. Save up a bit of cash so that you can play higher stakes from the start. Just don't neglect studying. BE present with every decision and recognize that you'll be reducing your variance with good folds, and you'll increase your win rate with good bets. Best of luck!
 
terryk

terryk

TheCanuckwithalltheluck
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 14, 2016
Total posts
7,053
Awards
10
It's just a fact that lower buy-ins attract anyone who will gamble a few bucks,,,the percentage lowers the higher the buy-in.But you will always have a few who don't care much about a few hundo's either,,, :rolleyes:
 
playinggameswithu

playinggameswithu

Legend
Joined
Nov 7, 2017
Total posts
2,250
too many bots and micro rake race grinders in micros play biggest mtt you can.
 
NHequalsFU

NHequalsFU

Visionary
Joined
Mar 14, 2005
Total posts
825
If you have the financial means to then by all means start out higher but if you are on a tight budget or just playing recreational then starting in the micros and working your way up isn't such a nightmare.

It will be a grind but thats to be expected.

Just don't think if you can crush the micros that the same success will be had at higher levels as the play changes and your small leaks become more noticeable.
 
MrPokerVerse

MrPokerVerse

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Total posts
2,759
Awards
2
If you can't beat the micros you shouldn't be moving up regardless of different styles of play. Have played in different stakes and to be honest, its about all the same just maybe less skilled in the lower stakes.

I see regulars at a lot levels playing different stakes. They are crushing the lower levels and getting by a higher ones. If you can't figure out the table dynamics early in a session or SnG, might start there.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Total posts
5,389
The usual advice for most poker players when they start is "start playing from the lowest limits and work your way up the ladder".

The thing is that in micros most of the time to play profitable you may have to play exactly the opposite than on higher levels. There are a ton of plays that on micros you should bet cause you are going to get called but on a higher level that bet would be costly in the long run cause opponents are smarter and going to bluff more often etc. Like when on a board of 88932 we go check check to the river if I have pp or A10+ I could extract a value bet from someone who would call me with worse. But betting A10+ on the river in higher stakes is suicidal. The same with bluffs. And also how am I supposed to put all the thought in ranges and 3-betting, when someone could 4bet from utg with 69o?

What I am trying to say is that playing the micros long enough isnt it like learning to do something the wrong way? Wouldnt be hard or costly to unlearn all this habits and reads when you move up? Maybe its better to skip them and start on higher level?
If you can afford to comfortably play in the higher buy-ins, go for it.
 
TheDude6622

TheDude6622

Legend
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Total posts
2,348
Awards
2
If you can't beat the micros you shouldn't be moving up regardless of different styles of play. Have played in different stakes and to be honest, its about all the same just maybe less skilled in the lower stakes.

I see regulars at a lot levels playing different stakes. They are crushing the lower levels and getting by a higher ones. If you can't figure out the table dynamics early in a session or SnG, might start there.

I was playing at a live cash game one day and a regular tournament player joined the table. I asked him how he did at the tournament and he shook his head. He then opened up a little and what he said was so true. No matter what stakes you play, there are ridiculous players that just get ultra lucky. Just because you move up the stakes or ladder, doesn't mean people change their play on a dime.

Learn the strategies and hands you should play in the micro stakes and you'll be able to build more and more.
 
5

5pAce_C0wb0y

Rock Star
Joined
Jan 13, 2019
Total posts
283
Awards
2
Starting at the micros is a waste of time. You'll just get frustrated with the no-look all-in's and you'll get beat with worse hands constantly. Save up a bit of cash so that you can play higher stakes from the start. Just don't neglect studying. BE present with every decision and recognize that you'll be reducing your variance with good folds, and you'll increase your win rate with good bets. Best of luck!


Starting at the micro's is far from a waste of time when starting out. Yes you'll see some dodgy all ins (you see them at every level) and yes you will get sucked out on by worse hands (also happens at every level) but you can learn so much from analysing these hands in detail. Skill level is generally lower at micro stakes, so a good player should be able to get plenty of winnings under there belt. As has been said previously if you can't beat the micro's your won't beat higher levels. Start at the bottom where you can make mistakes cheaply improve your game and move up slowly. If you keep studying as you go your game will develop and you'll reap the benefits .
 
MrPokerVerse

MrPokerVerse

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 18, 2009
Total posts
2,759
Awards
2
I was playing at a live cash game one day and a regular tournament player joined the table. I asked him how he did at the tournament and he shook his head. He then opened up a little and what he said was so true. No matter what stakes you play, there are ridiculous players that just get ultra lucky. Just because you move up the stakes or ladder, doesn't mean people change their play on a dime.

Learn the strategies and hands you should play in the micro stakes and you'll be able to build more and more.

Yes, that rings true with every poker player, good or bad. Those ultra luckies are only hitting a small percentage of hands coming way behind. You want them to make bad calls, it does suck when they do hit. Would much rather be way ahead on that type of player than get raised by a skilled player who is ahead or making a bluff.

Don't mind folding to either type. You can get a skilled player to fold a lot easier than someone who has no clue and wont fold regardless. Those are ones loser most hands and finding a favorable win on latter streets. Have seen them live and online playing higher stakes and make horrible calls. It does seem to be less of them however.
 
joeisi

joeisi

Bonafide Donkey
Loyaler
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Total posts
6,821
Awards
14
TT
Sometimes you are forced to work from bottom to top.

Most starting off do not have the bankroll to play higher if they follow proper brm.

If you have the roll then yes start a little higher than bottom.
 
eberetta1

eberetta1

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Total posts
2,100
Awards
7
US
There are people that play $400 a hand. Moving up from micros is not going to help much at all. If it's rent money, you are gonna play scared. Find a level you can afford and if you can beat it, then decide whether to move up the ladder.
 
eberetta1

eberetta1

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Aug 11, 2007
Total posts
2,100
Awards
7
US
Some people play $400 a hand. And if you are playing with rent money, you will be playing scared.

Find a level you can afford, then if you find that you can beat that level, then you decide on climbing the ladder.
 
xaakar

xaakar

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 24, 2015
Total posts
46
while its true i wouldnt start at anything under NL10.

so save up like 200$ ( minimum ) and start there. if they play like monkey. its simple:

- almost never bluff ( unless u see a nit obviously )
- value bet

you just have to play abc. follow your pot odds. set mine etc...

you dont have to worry about balance at all you go entirely exploitative.
they wont be aware that uve been folding for the last 2 orbits.

and if you have an HUD, its quite easy to get max value once you identified a fish whos never folding. you can start overbet. etc..

you can even underbet your draw they wont do nothing about it. except call.. which is what you want. just dont bluff em when u miss. cuz... yes you guessed it. they willl call :p



im currently doing a challenge ( made a post in poker challenge section of this forum ) , where i started with 100$ in october. played NL10 for a while like 150 000 hands. now im playing NL100 - NL200.

and of course once you start climbing up, you need to readjust your play. become more balance etc... in the end, people who are better at adjusting are going to win more at this game :p no matter what stake.

good luck!
 
frnandoh

frnandoh

Legend
Joined
Jul 27, 2016
Total posts
1,696
Awards
2
BR
I think freerolls and lowest limits prepare your mind to support bad times. Patience, patience, patience. Here in brazil, a lot of players say to have built their bankrolls from freerolls and now they are pro's. Losing in low limits, losing more in higher limits.
 
fishfood80

fishfood80

Rock Star
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Total posts
357
The usual advice for most poker players when they start is "start playing from the lowest limits and work your way up the ladder".

The thing is that in micros most of the time to play profitable you may have to play exactly the opposite than on higher levels. There are a ton of plays that on micros you should bet cause you are going to get called but on a higher level that bet would be costly in the long run cause opponents are smarter and going to bluff more often etc. Like when on a board of 88932 we go check check to the river if I have pp or A10+ I could extract a value bet from someone who would call me with worse. But betting A10+ on the river in higher stakes is suicidal. The same with bluffs. And also how am I supposed to put all the thought in ranges and 3-betting, when someone could 4bet from utg with 69o?

What I am trying to say is that playing the micros long enough isnt it like learning to do something the wrong way? Wouldnt be hard or costly to unlearn all this habits and reads when you move up? Maybe its better to skip them and start on higher level?

I think the advice is mostly talking about bankroll management. Built up a big enough bankroll to play in the stakes your comfortable in then when your bankroll can withstand it move up to bigger stakes. There is so much poker content online that you can do the studying you need before jumping in with the sharks, just make sure you;ve got a bankroll that can last there.
 
Peppinotom

Peppinotom

Legend
Joined
Apr 7, 2017
Total posts
1,203
I totally agree to most of here, all depends on the money you have to invest. You will find always crazy players in all stakes. maybe the only differencwe is that in low stakes they think they get lucky and in higher stakes they think they can outplay you. I've seen rich mexican play cash games yesterday, they don't give a damn about losing 100k $ (US), they are rather proud to being able to lose it and still have more than enough :) :bandit:
And some of them really played worse than the freeroll donks we love soooo much.
 
Top