Joe
99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
What kind of SnGs and what are the 'every other form of poker' you are playing?
There are strategic differences between cash, tournament, SnG and other formats/variants, which could be something to do with it but basic techniques should be somewhat transferrable...
Where are you having the most trouble Murph1969?
M
Murph1969
Rock Star
Silver Level
MTTs are what I most enjoy, but there seem to be more bad beats and the hand ranges seem to be tighterWhat kind of SnGs and what are the 'every other form of poker' you are playing?
There are strategic differences between cash, tournament, SnG and other formats/variants, which could be something to do with it but basic techniques should be somewhat transferrable...
Where are you having the most trouble Murph1969?
Joe
99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
MTT's are high variance, especially large field tournies.
Gotta stay focused and be very observant.
Most of the time it pays to concentrate on position and hand selection while looking for players who are making mistakes or wild plays.
Lots and lots of patience and awareness.
I'd recommend looking into different strategies for different types of games.
There are plenty of similarities with SnGs but the extended nature of the field inevitably brings in more chances for things to go wrong...
Study, keep the faith and good luck!
B
benitwapasu
Visionary
Silver Level
Spin and gos esp the flash ones are over pretty fast so they dont require a lot of time or patience. If you are lacking in either of those then it would make sense that you do better at that format compared to cash games or MTTs.
eberetta1
Legend
Loyaler
Then I would keep playing SnG's until the cows come home. A lot of people cannot find a format that wins them money. You are fortunate that you have found a profitable format.
The only scary part is when we win our money at one format, but enjoy another format even more and spend our winnings at a losing format.
The only scary part is when we win our money at one format, but enjoy another format even more and spend our winnings at a losing format.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Neither of this is true. The actual differences are, that MTTs are more complex games, that require concentration over longer periods of time, and depending on the format you typically play with deeper stacks, unless you late register. Deeper stacks matter, because you can not have the same stack-off range 100BB deep, as you do 40BB deep. Or at least that will lose you money, and what feels like a "cooler", will often be you overplaying your hand. Like for instance not being able to fold an overpair, when the action should tell you, you are beat.
Also I have asked you many times, how many MTTs, you have played, but I have never gotten an answer. If you are one of those people, who think, that 100 MTTs is a huge sample, then thats the main problem, because that is simply not the case. Its the nature of MTTs, that you will have far more losing than winning sessions, but sometimes the winning sessions are really big. This is especially true, if you play in large fields. I managed to reach a final table in my last two MTT sessions, but these were small fields of around 200 players. And these are the kind of MTTs, you need to play. if you want to see just somewhat consistent results.
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Murph1969
Rock Star
Silver Level
There are 65 MTTS in my database
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
This is nowhere near enough to even begin evaluating your results. Winning players can have losing runs of more than 1.000 MTTs. Check out this variance calculator:
Tournament Variance Calculator
Poker Tournament Variance Simulator – calculates variance for poker tournaments, MTTs and SNGs.
www.primedope.com
Luvepoker
Lost in the twilight zone
Community Guide
lots of great information here on why MTT are harder to evaluate so I wont repeat those here but I will add this, You need to remember SNG pays 1/3 of the players or 30% on average. MTT can pay between 10 and about 15%of players so you cash much less often. Also size of the evens make the variance bigger. Also the money is on top. Look at really good players and you will see them look like they lose for hundred or thousand of tournament and then suddenly look like a winner. Why, Imagine playing in a 13,108 player tournament and finishing in the top 3% of this event for a nice payday. I won less than 4 buy ins. Think of that for a moment. I should cash 1 time in 7 in this tournament. Went way deeper and my profit was less than 3 BI. This is why it looks like you can bring the cash home so much better in SNG and look like your losing in MTT
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Murph1969
Rock Star
Silver Level
If I have no idea what I’m doing wrong, why are the next 10,000 tournaments gonna be any different?This is nowhere near enough to even begin evaluating your results. Winning players can have losing runs of more than 1.000 MTTs. Check out this variance calculator:
Tournament Variance Calculator
Poker Tournament Variance Simulator – calculates variance for poker tournaments, MTTs and SNGs.
F
fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
The point is, you dont even know, if you are doing anything wrong, or if you have just been a little unlucky over a very small sample. So you just need to believe in yourself, be properly bankrolled for the stakes, you play, and put in a lot more hours at the tables, even if you dont see immedeate results. 65 MTTs is something like 4-5 sessions for me, so if I have vacation and play MTTs every day, I can play that in less than a week.
Z
zipocool
Visionary
Platinum Level
why do you need other types of poker if you consistently win in one of them), play 80% SNG and try to conquer other types of poker for the remaining 20%
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
In an MTT with 13.108 players on Stars 27% of the price pool is getting paid to the top 3 finishers. As long as you dont collect part of that money yourself, it acts like a sort of tax or extra rake, which is almost impossible to overcome. And if you play in fields of 13.108 players you can only expect to reach top 3 every 4.000 tournaments or so. This is why, variance is these big events is so enormous and can last for several years.
In an MTT with 300 players Stars pay an even higher 41% of the price pool to the top 3 finishers. But since you can expect to reach top 3 every 100 tournaments, its a lot easier to overcome variance. But even so 65 tournaments is a meaningless small sample. Assuming 300 player, 50 places pay and an ROI of 20%, then the risk of loss over such a small sample is 49,2%, so its basically a coin toss.
After 1.000 games the risk of loss has declined to 12,7%, so now losing runs are more rare. But they will still happen quite regularly, and as Nathan say in that video, I linked to, there is no assurance, they will not happen during your first 1.000 games. Which has likely led to many otherwise talented people giving up on poker, before they even really got started.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Exactly. If we are trying to build a bankroll or make a regular (side) income from poker, then its all about finding a low variance game, we beat, and then play it a lot. This can get boring though, and if OP wants to play in a more recreational way and enjoy MTTs more than SnG, then thats totally fine. But then he cant be this results oriented. He need to make a poker budget and consider it as money spend on entertainment. Maybe one day he will then "bink" a big cash, and then thats the time, he can begin to manage that money as a bankroll. Or withdraw it and spend it on something nice.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
Just to give OP and others a further idea about variance in poker, we can look at some data from my pokerstars sharkscope. One of my most commonly played game types is Fifty/50 SnGs, which is also the format with the lowest variance, since half the field cashes. And overall I am profitable in these games, but there are some fairly striking differences from limit to limit. Below I have listed the most commonly played limit, where the story is, that $3,5 and $7 games were replaced with $5 and $10 games in 2021.
$3,5, 733 games, -$174, ROI -6,8%
$5, 898 games, +$174, ROI +3,9%
$7 508 games, +$446, ROI +12,5%
$10, 1455 games, +$1229, ROI +8,4%
Total 3594 games, +$1675, Total ROI +6,6%
I played the $3.5 and $7 limits more or less simultaneously. Had I only played the $3.5 games and experienced to be down 50 BIs after 733 games, I would probably have concluded, that Fifty/50 SnGs suck and stopped playing them. But because I was also playing $7 games and was doing much better in them, I kept playing the Fifty/50 SnGs, and now after more than 3.500 games (not including other more rarely played limits) my total ROI is +6,6%, which is perfectly decent, since these are fast games with a low rake. The point, I am trying to make, is just, that if you want to take poker seriously, then you need to be prepared for crazy variance like this over surpricingly large samples.
$3,5, 733 games, -$174, ROI -6,8%
$5, 898 games, +$174, ROI +3,9%
$7 508 games, +$446, ROI +12,5%
$10, 1455 games, +$1229, ROI +8,4%
Total 3594 games, +$1675, Total ROI +6,6%
I played the $3.5 and $7 limits more or less simultaneously. Had I only played the $3.5 games and experienced to be down 50 BIs after 733 games, I would probably have concluded, that Fifty/50 SnGs suck and stopped playing them. But because I was also playing $7 games and was doing much better in them, I kept playing the Fifty/50 SnGs, and now after more than 3.500 games (not including other more rarely played limits) my total ROI is +6,6%, which is perfectly decent, since these are fast games with a low rake. The point, I am trying to make, is just, that if you want to take poker seriously, then you need to be prepared for crazy variance like this over surpricingly large samples.
Marshmalo1994
Legend
Platinum Level
Years ago I used to play regularly sngs, and I had +20% roi with a high volume.
Now that I returned to play, I had an awful start with sngs, but found good results in mtts 🤷🏻♂️
I'd take some advantage in playing sngs in your situation.
Did you try to review your game?
Now that I returned to play, I had an awful start with sngs, but found good results in mtts 🤷🏻♂️
I'd take some advantage in playing sngs in your situation.
Did you try to review your game?
christovam
Visionary
Platinum Level
Each type of game has its own characteristics and ways of playing. The good thing is to delve into one type. In my case, as an example, I lost a lot in cash games and started to dedicate myself to learn more about SNG's.
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fundiver199
Legend
Loyaler
By putting in volume. It also makes sense to follow the path of least resistance. If you are doing well in one game but not another, then play the game, where you are doing well. In my early poker days I played cash games, and after a while there was a massive difference between my results in 6-max Zoom games and 9-max regular tables. I did way better on the latter, so I gave up Zoom and focused my attention, where I was winning. However with MTTs it makes no sense to give up after just 65 of them. Play at least 1.000, and then you can evaluate.
Evan Jarvis
Legend
Platinum Level
It may just be that you need some strategic adjustments and strategies more gears to chip accumulation
I think you'll find this video rather helpful on that subject
And if you enjoy it the full 10 part playlist is shared on the main page of my youtube channel