When to stop raising pre flop and Limp

[dan abnormal]

I understand if your going to enter the pot with a good hand that you need to raise up the bb 3 to 5xbb but if you keep doing this and start missing flops left and right and start getting pressure put on you from callers. When should you quit making such large preflop bets if your just bleeding chips, and and Im talking before you hit the 10bb level where then your decisions are already made, but lately Im raising preflop bets, sometimes I c-bet sometimes I dont but lately I have been missing lots of flops and have just started limping into pots to see the flop and go from there. I understand the logic to isolate but when do you quit using this strategy

 

[TPC]

NEVER OPEN LIMP!!!

 

[dan abnormal]

So what are you trying to say LOL OK GOTCHA

 

[Daniel72]

You are right, but against the maniacs i love to open-limp !

 

[dan abnormal]

I just hate getting great pockets and missing flops, putting up big preflops and then some body raising on the flop cause they probably played crap and caught a piece of it and then its like hmm well do I calll here and hope I hit on the turn or river. Hes right though Im still a very ABC player and need to not fall back into bad habits Im slowly getting out of

 

[Eclipsenz]

I'm crazy and basicly raise any pockets from any position, dependant on the situation and the villians range I can rep an ace or king and knock him out of the pot if i feel I can.. works a treat mostly. whether you guys agree with that strategy or not i dunno but I've won more pots with it than lost.

I never limp never, its so bad when you flop a massive hand and get no value for it, if I start losing respect with my hands though I tighten up a bit or shove my entire stack if its bubble play.

 

[KINGSIN]

Dont do anything all the time. Limp is okay especially with speculative hands (suited connectors, pocket pairs) , do you only want one opp against you when you flop a set, strait? No the more the better. Most times youll lay down the suited connectors down to a raise after a limp, but if employing a limping strategy youll be limping with big hands too, so when you get five limps behind you and jo blow puts in a big steal raise-youll have no problem moving in with your AA, and if called the table sees this and allows you to limp more, if your table image isnt formed and you keep getting reraised off your hands- then raise be aggresive, change it up so your opp, dont know how to label you other than dangerous

 

[dan abnormal]

Dont do anything all the time. Limp is okay especially with speculative hands (suited connectors, pocket pairs) , do you only want one opp against you when you flop a set, strait? No the more the better. Most times youll lay down the suited connectors down to a raise after a limp, but if employing a limping strategy youll be limping with big hands too, so when you get five limps behind you and jo blow puts in a big steal raise-youll have no problem moving in with your AA, and if called the table sees this and allows you to limp more, if your table image isnt formed and you keep getting reraised off your hands- then raise be aggresive, change it up so your opp, dont know how to label you other than dangerous

See I agree with this stuff too am I right in my thinking, If Im chasing straights I want multiway pots, same with flushes, and Premium Pocket pairs, but if Im playing not premium pockets pairs 99-JJ I want to really push hard preflop to get people out. ITs the low pocket pairs that confuse me and I tend to limp on these just to see I hit a set, but it seems everyone is in on the no limping rule and raises it preflop anyways, but I do like what you said about limping the premium pockets pairs and then if someone does try to steal the pot you can re-raise them. but keep posting ideas Im listening and will try to incorporate anything that will help my game

 

[TPC]

I didn't say never limp, I said,

NEVER OPEN LIMP!!!

 

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

Since "Never open limp" is a mantra for many players, open limping is a valid strategy...

But a lot of pre-flop play depends on your image. If you notice people start losing respect for your raises, you're better off changing 'raise' into 'fold' than into 'call'.

So if you get KQs UTG and you've been diagnosed as a loose player, fold it. A raise would get too many calls and a limp would get reraised too often.
On the plus side, you can probably charge a little extra for the premium hands you get.

Then of course if you've been very active and then suddenly quiet down for 20 hands, people will notice that too and realize you've tightened up, which allows you to start seeing some cheap flops again.

 

[Biggee247]

No matter how bad ive been missing i still go 3x to 5x the BB. I tend to limp sometimes if im real low in chips, yet im trying to break that habit.

 

[c9h13no3]

Yeah, this thread is why I don't read the tournament poker forum anymore... Maybe just merge learning poker & tournament poker? Idk, even that sounds wrong, since the learning poker posts at least have some clue of how to get better....

 

[Rldetheflop]

Dont do anything all the time. Limp is okay especially with speculative hands (suited connectors, pocket pairs) , do you only want one opp against you when you flop a set, strait? No the more the better. Most times youll lay down the suited connectors down to a raise after a limp, but if employing a limping strategy youll be limping with big hands too, so when you get five limps behind you and jo blow puts in a big steal raise-youll have no problem moving in with your AA, and if called the table sees this and allows you to limp more, if your table image isnt formed and you keep getting reraised off your hands- then raise be aggresive, change it up so your opp, dont know how to label you other than dangerous

its ok to limp behind with some speculative hands but open limping is a no no.

 

[kmixer]

I tend to agree with TPC but if you are opening all of your hands with a raise only to find that you are stil getting 4-5 callers than it is tempting and sometimes out of frustration to starting open limping. When your raises dont get respect what are you supposed to do keep open raising and getting beat by the same hands that refused to fold to a raise?

 

[Poker Orifice]

I just hate getting great pockets and missing flops, putting up big preflops and then some body raising on the flop cause they probably played crap and caught a piece of it and then its like hmm well do I calll here and hope I hit on the turn or river. Hes right though Im still a very ABC player and need to not fall back into bad habits Im slowly getting out of

The thing is Dan... we're playing our opponents.. not just our cards.

'One' of the benefits of raising preflop is > let's say you're raising with 88 in CO.. BB calls. Flop comes A-7-4 rainbow. When you cbet here you can easily rep. the 'A'.

Something else to consider -> once your stack is ~20bb or <20bb... you really don't want to be raising with a hand you'd consider folding if you're re-raised.. in other words.. open with hands you're willing to go all the way with (this would be in a typical MTT... sometimes in priv. MTTs the 'Q' value is fairly low.. in other words ALOT of the remaining players (the majority) have stacks of say 14-22bb's < in these types of tourneys you need to make necessary adjustments).
So... read up about 'stack sizes' and how we need to consider playing with different stack sizes (clue > 14-24bb stack 'resteal stack'... this size of stack is perfect sized stack to come over top of a raiser & shove it ALLIN... this is actually an awkward-sized stack to open for a raise... cbet a flop hu when you wiff.. then fold if you get played back at.... or giving it up on the turn... cuz you've just spewed off a ton of your chips & now you no longer even have a resteal-sized stack to use in your arsenal... you only have a shovestack & will need to look to get it in sometime soon).
So.. find a good article on this (hint... I have one, lol).

Another thing you might want to read up on is 'c-betting'. What types of flops & what types of situations warrant themselves for a cbet... which ones do not.
Some other key stuff (tricky spots)...stuff like when you're raised up with say KK/QQ you have 2 callers and now there's an A on the flop... eek!!! ALot of players will say > "Lead out on this flop .. 'to see where you're at' " < this is bs though imo... 'beginner's play'.. 'rookie thinking'.... the guy with JJ floats your cbet on the A flop.. then takes it away from you on the turn when you check it to them.. or check-raises you off the best hand on the flop.

Going a bit off track with this ^ (tricky spots), but am guessing it'd be good stuff for you to check out.

Oh yah... another thing re: postflop betting. We have to consider 'why are we betting'. Are we hoping to get value from hands we beat? Are we trying to make better hands fold? (will they fold?). Often I'll see new-ish playes who'll make HUGE overbets on flops with an overpr. because they're scared of being drawn out on... or they get scared if they lead out with say a 2/3 pot bet & get called... "oh oh.. now what" so to compensate they'll just overbet HUGE into the pot (ie. 3x pot on the flop.. or turn).. when ONLY better hands are going to call us here.. AND.. hands we could actually be getting value from, we'll be losing out on.

TONS of stuff to learn but best to take it one thing, one step at a time. It's alot to process. If you take on too many different things at once it'll get confusing.
Also, as you progress along things will become much more intuitive to you - - situations that used to be troubling (or baffling) will become much simpler. Reads on players will get way better too (IF you keep practising).

Will try to help you out if &/or when I can. You're obviously pretty keen on getting better.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Yeah, this thread is why I don't read the tournament poker forum anymore... Maybe just merge learning poker & tournament poker? Idk, even that sounds wrong, since the learning poker posts at least have some clue of how to get better....

Why? Your post here makes no sense to me??? This is a guy (DanAbs) who is newer to poker & is super keen to learn how to get better. I've read a bunch of his posts (not just on here but elsewhere as well) & KNOW that he has made HUGE improvements & has progressed a ton. ALSO KNOW that he wants to get better.
Learning Poker... or 'Tournament Poker'... well I think he wants to learn 'Tournament Poker'. I suppose they're all suppose to have a clue on how to do so (according to you)? Instead of maybe posting but maybe not being able to nail what they're specifically looking for... ie. Do I keep raising pre & cbetting wiffed flops? When or should I stop doing this? What flops are good to cbet? What players are good to cbet against? Should I just start limping in? (or whatever).
Sure their question is kind of a vague as it can actually cover ALOT of different stuff. But he's asking about a problem as he perceives it. I don't see the problem with that?

You're not a Tournament player are you C9? Then why read tourney threads by newer players & complain about their questions? (I personally don't see how a forum (& it's newer players) benefits from this?)

 

[TPC]

I tend to agree with TPC but if you are opening all of your hands with a raise only to find that you are stil getting 4-5 callers than it is tempting and sometimes out of frustration to starting open limping. When your raises dont get respect what are you supposed to do keep open raising and getting beat by the same hands that refused to fold to a raise?

No, start adjusting the hands you open raise with based on your position and the players left to act behind you. When your raises aren't getting respect, start open folding hands at the bottom of your raising range in early and middle positions.

 

[c9h13no3]

Why? Your post here makes no sense to me??? This is a guy (DanAbs) who is newer to poker & is super keen to learn how to get better.

I don't have a problem with his question. I have a problem with the refuse of responses, and the forum he posted it in. The advice floating around here is just extra-bad. And even guys like myself or TPC are just way too jaded to post anything useful. And on top of that, limping vs. raising is very very very basic preflop play and this question should be in learning poker. And the fact that half this thread can't really figure it out basically means all you posters should be in learning poker as well.

I open up a thread in here and usually think one (or more) of the following things to myself:

1) Dear god, there's so much bad advice here, there's no saving this thread. I could write for days and still be outnumbered by horrible advice.
2) The people who are posting the good advice are drowned out by the bad stuff.
3) The question that's being asked is a part of a player's game that you really shouldn't worry about. Even if the forum can give the poster the right answer, it won't improve their game much at all.
4) The thread really belongs in the learning poker section because the answers are so super duper fundamental and they apply to any type of poker (tournament, cash, strip poker, whatever).


So yeah. Sorry for the high-jack.

And in an attempt to be part of the solution:

You raise preflop for the following reasons:

1) Your hand, on average, is better than your opponent's, and will flop more hands & will flop better hands than they will. Start exploiting this edge as early as possible in the hand, which means raising preflop.

2) You raise preflop because winning the blinds is a good result for all but the strongest hands. Most hold'em hands have an expected value of less than a big blind, so when you win 1.5 big blinds, you're getting an above average result.

3) Most hands will miss the flop most of the time. Raising preflop makes your range stronger, and thus most opponents will have to fold to your c-bet when they miss most of the time. Its called initiative, and its an awesome thing.

4) Raising limits the number of players in the pot. When there are many players in the pot, you're forced to play your hand in a straightforward manner.

5) Limping in preflop with speculative hands announces your hand's speculative nature to other players. They will either punish you for this (by raising preflop), or will limp along with hands that will play well against your speculative hand. When you limp in preflop with 22, and your opponent limps in with 45s, its going to be very difficult to get his stack, and he will usually be drawing to a hand that can outdraw the set you plan to flop.

6) Plus a million other reasons. Seriously, I could probably list a million and they're all good.

So yeah. Someone needs to make a sticky in this forum that just says "Stop limping, stop making threads about limping because limping sucks". We've covered it a million times, and avoiding limping except for a very select few scenarios is one of the most fundamental things every poker players learns. Learning poker probably already has a million threads on it already. And if someone doesn't understand basic preflop play, they should be reading the learning poker section anyways.

 

[dan abnormal]

Didint mean to get everyone going, If I posted this in the wrong section , I will send a message to the main guy here to see if he can get it moved. I appreciate all the info PO took the time to put down and I also appreciate the info C9h13?? put down here. The questioned was more geared toward MTT play thats why I put it in this forum. Maybe the learning poker forum should be divided into learning MTT and Learning SNGs and Learning RIng games then maybe I wouldnt think a MTT question would go in the MTT thread. Look I value anyone that takes the time to answer a question thats been asked a million times, if its good info I will find out pretty quickly when I play and if its bad info I will find out even faster but really there are good arguments for and against I have read here. IM just saying if your too jaded (which one has to wonder why you are even part of a forum) the thread wasnt made to bait people, bleeding chips is a big hole in my game and its one Im just trying to figure out how to fix. and it sounds like a 50-50 split on dont bleed as many chips preflop to just open a gusher post flop Once again I thank everyone for any answers they took time to give regardless if this is day one of poker learning

The request has been sent to the main man to move this thread to the learning poker if he deems it too low level to stay in this category

 

[c9h13no3]

Meht, its no big deal Dan. I understand why you posted it in the forum you did. Not a big mistake, and its not what's driving me nuts around here.

Being jaded is my problem. I've witnessed the post quality go downhill pretty quickly here, and its very frustrating. But I shouldn't take it out on you, since you just want to get better.