When do you shove with 44 in a game and should it be done UTG1??

kidkvno1

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Game is a MTT I think 7 or 8 players, I don't remember. Is it safe to shove UTG1 with all of the other players ahead of you, you have 25BBs, knowing the other players play tight??
Other just about have a starting stack yet. Blind levels are 10 mins.
 
Poker_Mike

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Is it safe to shove UTG1 with all of the other players ahead of you
Rarely "safe". You are just polling the table to find out if someone has you beat or likes their two over cards enough to call.
you have 25BBs
Oh that's a lot. Why are you open shoving that much from UTG1? Even by eliminating position - it is still not worth it.
knowing the other players play tight?
So you're just trying to steal the blinds?

Your plan is to increase your stack by 1.5BB (little more if there are anties) - but you are risking your entire stack of 25BB??

If you are called then you are either a statistical dog to an overpair. Or, you are basically flipping with two overs.

Why not wait for a better hand from a better position?

Now attempting to set-mine OOP - that could be worthwhile if you can get to the river cheaply.
 
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Phoenix Wright

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It depends on your playstyle, your table image and how tight/loose your opponents are. Generally speaking, shoving 44 with 25 bbs seems like a huge risk though. Depending on the table and game structure, 10 bbs probably, 15 bbs perhaps, 20 bbs doubtful, yet 25 bbs hardly ever correct.

Even disregarding the earlier position, know that even 2 random overcards to 44 (and that is a ton of combinations including hands like QJo or 76s) are probably in a coin flip situation and an overpair would be devastating with about only 20% equity (exact based on which overpair of course). There might even be multiple players continuing if you are in this early position! These scenarios (free poker calculator equilab) are just Heads-up examples:

UTG+1: 4c 4s 51.47% equity
BTN: Qh Jd 48.53% equity

UTG+1: 4c 4s 49.35% equity
BTN: 7h 6h 50.65% equity

UTG+1: 4c 4s 19.36% equity
BTN: 9h 9d 80.64% equity

These are just some possible matchups, but this doesn't even account for premium hands like AA or AKo; not to mention how these are just a few specific holdings are example rather than constructed ranges. Here is one example range just to show the point. Let us say:
UTG+1 is up against one caller (BTN or whatever position) whose range contains about 20% of hands (you can adjust the ranges you want for mathematical reasons or based on position, but 20% seems like a round number just to illustrate a point). 20% range would look something like this:
22+,A2s+,K2s+,A6o+ and with this range against exactly 4c 4s we have:

UTG+1: 4c4s 47.22% equity
BTN: 52.78% equity

In short, it is unlikely that players are going to be loose enough calling down 44 25bbs All-In shoves to make this profitable for this situation.
 
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Andyreas

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Is it safe to shove UTG1 with all of the other players ahead of you, you have 25BBs, knowing the other players play tight??
Usually you start to think about open shove with 15 BBs or less in case there is an ante.

The 25 BBs or less are good to shove if someone has raised before you.

The problem with tight opponents is that they only call with super premium hands like QQ+ or maybe AK and you absolutely do not want those to play against your 44.

So my answer to your question is no.
 
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kunkgreen

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Safe?

A shove from this position with the entire table to speak is definitely not profitable. It also depends on your table image, normally an all-in UTG1 will tend to think you're big. Anyway, with so many people to act later, you'll probably only get called losing. Expect to be in the best position if you want to steal the blinds.

With 25bb the lowest pair I would open would be 77+
I hope to be using solvers soon so I can give my thoughts more ground!
 
Phoenix Wright

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Yes and based on table image and opponents etc. even 77+ might be too loose to shove All-In from UTG+1 with 25bbs. 25bbs might not be a mountain of chips in many games, but it can last a while and there are likely better opportunities to chip up than to risk it all on one hand with a holding as risky as 44.
 
kunkgreen

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Yes and based on table image and opponents etc. even 77+ might be too loose to shove All-In from UTG+1 with 25bbs. 25bbs might not be a mountain of chips in many games, but it can last a while and there are likely better opportunities to chip up than to risk it all on one hand with a holding as risky as 44.
In the case with 77+ I would just open raise.
I can't imagine opening with all-in from UTG1 (25bb) with no hand!

Depending on the tournament and conditions I prefer to be tighter than that to compensate for being out OOP!
 
Navin Sarabjeet

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Depends for me what stack depth I have less than 6 bb is def a shove for me on utg or else it's a minopen. Usually I don"t shove all in with such small pairs. When you get called the best thing you can hope for is a flip nearly never are you dominating pre. So according to those stats it is not a profitable move on the long run.
 
spunka

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Don't like the shove from that spot with a playable stack. But if you see yourself as the worst player at the time it might be ok to start flipping, as you see from the #3 post it is turning the game into a flip game.
small pairs are not that strong as opponent that do call will have over cards at least and even a over pair, and winnings is not that big unless you get called.

I think along others that a small 2-4 bb bet is fine.
 
finaltable1

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I usually fold it in UTG
 
rastapapolos

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Hi, to answer your question, it's not a profitable shove when you are UTG. Theory tells us to tighten up our range when we are first to act. In a full ring table there are a lot of player to act behind you. You have to do a standard raise (2.5 or 3 xbb) and see if there is some action behind. You'll also give other players good odds to call, and if you hit a set on a board like Axx or Kxx you'll get action from AK or 2 pairs.
To be balanced you have to play all your hands the same way to be unpredictible. So try to play like you have AK or JJ...etc
 
Gallarado777

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it would be a mistake to push into 7-8 players need to push with 44 if there are 2 players left
 
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