What is ICM? (Day 14 Course Discussion)

[BentleyBoy]

Another interesting day’s training on ICM, which is something I have been award of but haven’t used that much. It’s certainly something that is worth knowing and understanding better so I’m off to ICM to get the calculator and work my way through some scenarios.

 

[iveyfan]

Haven't used ICM or any technology much... the most I've done is use push/fold charts with stack size in BB. That being said, the Nash calculator looked super interesting when calculating ranges using stack size and blinds. I'm definitely going to run a few scenarios through it to deepen my knowledge.

 

[lollipopas]

Could you explain how to read the push/fold range strategies on Holdemresources? I'm a bit confused.


Say I calculated the attached example. When I put in everyone, it assigns position - so is this only for this particular position, and then you need to put everyone in again, shifted?

And then in the chart, what is PU, CA, OC? and all the positions listed, how do I read it?

 

[Collin Moshman]

Could you explain how to read the push/fold range strategies on Holdemresources? I'm a bit confused.


Say I calculated the attached example. When I put in everyone, it assigns position - so is this only for this particular position, and then you need to put everyone in again, shifted?

And then in the chart, what is PU, CA, OC? and all the positions listed, how do I read it?

PU = Pusher
CA = Caller
OC = Overcaller (Range for Calling once there's already been a shove and call)

Here's how you'd read your screenshot:

** UTG should shove 7.2% of hands.

** If UTG does shove, UTG+1 should re-shove with 4.7% of hands.

** If UTG and UTG+1 both go all-in, MP1 should shove with JJ+.

** If UTG shoves and UTG+1 folds, MP1 should shove with JJ+ and AK.

Continuing down, we'll get to UTG+1 being in the PU column which is his first-in range.

I hope that explanation makes sense, feel free to post for more elaboration!

 

[acidburnfx]

Important explanation in this video presented to help improve your game and learn from it, because it will probably refine our decisions in future tournaments.

 

[ammje]

Thank you very much for this material, many times I have made mistakes for not being clear about the ICM concept, but now I will make better decisions in the future.

 

[bruno13xs]

I think the ICM varies a lot from tournament to tournament. so determined the value of your chips

 

[gabrielcsgo93]

ICM helps a lot to make good decisions but for me, is not all in poker, yhere are many other variations that must be taken into account!

 

[Katie Dozier]

Thank you very much for this material, many times I have made mistakes for not being clear about the ICM concept, but now I will make better decisions in the future.

That’s so great to hear, thanks!

 

[Coinuss]

ICM ranges are hard to learn, but after spending some time they really improve your understanding of the game. I read the suggestions for learning ICM on this forum, but I didn't think how important it is. Now I am using an ICM trainer to improve my push-fold skills. Thank you, Collin and Katie.

 

[freddydr87]

This was a hard leasson,in cash we play with money,there are no chips or pay jumps u get excactly wath you win, but in Sitn Gos and MTT is diferent because the pay jumps gets very big when we aproach the top 3 players

 

[Katie Dozier]

ICM ranges are hard to learn, but after spending some time they really improve your understanding of the game. I read the suggestions for learning ICM on this forum, but I didn't think how important it is. Now I am using an ICM trainer to improve my push-fold skills. Thank you, Collin and Katie.

That’s awesome that you’re using an ICM trainer to help you study, I’m sure you’ll have great gains and good luck with it!

 

[Katie Dozier]

This was a hard leasson,in cash we play with money,there are no chips or pay jumps u get excactly wath you win, but in Sitn Gos and MTT is diferent because the pay jumps gets very big when we aproach the top 3 players

When people ask me what the biggest difference between cash and tournament poker is, my answer is simply “ICM,” so don’t worry—it makes total sense that this would be a difficult concept as a cash player new to the tournament scene.

Great to get your perspective on this as a cash player, please just let us know if you have any questions along the way!

 

[king11682]

I did not understand anything about the ICM (independent chip model) I had seen it before but I had not read about it; Now I know that it can help in decision making.

 

[Good Man]

When people ask me what the biggest difference between cash and tournament poker is, my answer is simply “ICM,” so don’t worry—it makes total sense that this would be a difficult concept as a cash player new to the tournament scene.

Great to get your perspective on this as a cash player, please just let us know if you have any questions along the way!

Good time of day. I had heard about ICM before and seen it on video streams, but I didn't really understand what it was. In this video tutorial, everything is described in great detail and examples are provided as an explanation. Thank you for the detailed analysis!




Life is a game , play beautiful

 

[TeUnit]

You can usually tell if somebody is complementing you on your ICM usage if they call you a "shove monkey" or a "bingo player". Which is also a good way to tell if they understand ICM and how light they may shoving/calling.

 

[Collin Moshman]

You can usually tell if somebody is complementing you on your ICM usage if they call you a "shove monkey" or a "bingo player". Which is also a good way to tell if they understand ICM and how light they may shoving/calling.

Great to see you TeUnit and that is very true

Another fun one is: "how do you go all-in with just a pair of 6's??"

Chat definitely reveals a lot!

 

[Phyrrura]

U.S. metric system...

"A hair over"?! I laughed hard about it, Statunitians always surprising me with the creativeness for them to find ways of measure things.

Anw, amazing class, like it very much the concept and mainly it's application for big decisions like when to shove.

 

[carmenzu]

It is important to know the exact correlation between tokens (ICM) and money.
ICM is also very practical when it comes to deals in poker tournaments.

 

[Pichman189]

When people ask me what the biggest difference between cash and tournament poker is, my answer is simply “ICM,” so don’t worry—it makes total sense that this would be a difficult concept as a cash player new to the tournament scene.

Great to get your perspective on this as a cash player, please just let us know if you have any questions along the way!

Great to see you TeUnit and that is very true

Another fun one is: "how do you go all-in with just a pair of 6's??"

Chat definitely reveals a lot!

And what is the more correct way to get into the prizes often, but the tactic is not to fly out of the tournament? And as a rule, we are talking about the last prize places.
Or take risks constantly, thinking or all or nothing. Or 1 place or no matter what?
And I understand correctly that the most comfortable amount of big blinds for a game is 50+?
Ok, if we are talking about prize places. I have 10 big blinds and 5 more people will be eliminated from tournaments (lose) and I will be in the prizes. Does it make sense to put the entire stack all in, even with a pair of queens? Or is it better to wait until 5 people fly out and then exhibit (all-in)?
I ask why. I had a bad experience at fairly large tournaments - there was only one place left before the prizes. I got 2 queens, my stack is 9 big blinds. I'm in the button position, everyone folds to me. I am all in and my opponent in the big blind is all in too. Ironically, he has 2 aces. and I lost. Just one place before hitting the prizes. Yes, this prize for last paid place was of only 2 starting buy-ins, but it's still a shame.
What do you think about this? Looking forward to your response. :icon_bigs:icon_bigs:icon_bigs

 

[Pichman189]

I feel that few people have gone through this topic. Comparing to the forum of the first 3 topics (week 1), where posts are 20 pages, there is only one page. But I will write everywhere if I went through this topic. Sometimes it is not possible to study the course consistently, but I will go through it all!)

 

[Collin Moshman]

And what is the more correct way to get into the prizes often, but the tactic is not to fly out of the tournament? And as a rule, we are talking about the last prize places.
Or take risks constantly, thinking or all or nothing. Or 1 place or no matter what?
And I understand correctly that the most comfortable amount of big blinds for a game is 50+?
Ok, if we are talking about prize places. I have 10 big blinds and 5 more people will be eliminated from tournaments (lose) and I will be in the prizes. Does it make sense to put the entire stack all in, even with a pair of queens? Or is it better to wait until 5 people fly out and then exhibit (all-in)?
I ask why. I had a bad experience at fairly large tournaments - there was only one place left before the prizes. I got 2 queens, my stack is 9 big blinds. I'm in the button position, everyone folds to me. I am all in and my opponent in the big blind is all in too. Ironically, he has 2 aces. and I lost. Just one place before hitting the prizes. Yes, this prize for last paid place was of only 2 starting buy-ins, but it's still a shame.
What do you think about this? Looking forward to your response. :icon_bigs:icon_bigs:icon_bigs

It's usually a mistake to be that tight approaching the money. Your finish distribution will have a lot of min-cashes and too few high finishes where most of the money is. With a strong hand and short stack, go for it!

 

[Pichman189]

It's usually a mistake to be that tight approaching the money. Your finish distribution will have a lot of min-cashes and too few high finishes where most of the money is. With a strong hand and short stack, go for it!

Yesterday I finished my session with ITM 11% and ROI 12%, but 2 days ago ITM 33% and ROI 45% and 3d dai ROI -100%

What is the average ROI and ITM for SNG 0.25 $ 45 max?

 

[Collin Moshman]

Yesterday I finished my session with ITM 11% and ROI 12%, but 2 days ago ITM 33% and ROI 45% and 3d dai ROI -100%

What is the average ROI and ITM for SNG 0.25 $ 45 max?

Short term swings can be pretty big!

Overall the average ROI will be a loss of the rake (so around -10% depending on the exact $0.25 45-man vig which I'm not sure of off the top of my head) and ITM will be 7/45 ~ 16%. Among regs though, I would think the average ROI would be around 30% for a fairly soft field that most micro SNGs get.

 

[Zirkzee]

Not every chip is worth the same in tournaments. There are tournament phases when it is extremely unfavorable to lose chips. For example if you are about to receive the prize money (bubble). The ICM answers the question of how much it is worth doubling your stack in a certain tournament phase and how catastrophic is it to lose half of your stack?
Example:
Example tournament
Buy-in: $ 10
Teammates: 10
Payouts: 1st $ 50, 2nd $ 30, 3rd $ 20
Starting stack: 1,000 chips
Example chip counts for the last 4 players
Player 1: 5,000 chips
Player 2: 2,000 chips
Player 3: 2,000 chips
Player 4: 1,000 chips

From this, the average profit of each player can be calculated:
ICM value of these chips
Player 1: 5,000 chips ≅ $ 37.18
Player 2: 2,000 chips ≅ $ 24.33
Player 3: 2,000 chips ≅ $ 24.33
Player 4: 1,000 chips ≅ $ 14.17

The following game situation is to be assessed based on the ICM model: Player 4 folds, Player 1 folds, Player 2 moves all-in (2,000 chips), Player 3 holds A9s What should player 3 do? If Player 3 doubles in this situation, their average win in this tournament is $ 36.44. If he calls and loses, he has no more chips and his expected value is $ 0. Let's say player 3 wins the showdown by 60%. Then he can calculate his expected value: EV = 60% * $ 36.44 + 40% * $ 0 = $ 21.86 His expected profit has now decreased. From $ 24.33 to $ 21.86. Therefore he should fold according to the ICM model although he has a 60% chance of winning. He shouldn't put all of his chips at risk if he can just wait until player 4 goes out and he slips into the prize money.