Someone please give me a theory/math explanation for why this is a bad idea

[ventrolloquist]

So we can all agree that calling ranges vs. an UTG raise should be even tighter than the open.

But what if the UTG player plays a range where the lowest pocket pair they open with is 88?

Why wouldn't it make sense to make my calling range polar and call with low suited connectors/small pairs that don't touch the UTG range? (So that I can have more post flop maneuverability if a low flop that hits my range comes)

Say he's really tight and raises only with broadways from UTG, does it not then make even more sense to call with smaller holdings and at least wait for the flop? (but also 3 bet with broadways where I have blockers like I normally would).

Is it because the flop will hit a high card often enough to make it unprofitable to call with a range like that? Is that still applicable vs a super tight UTG player who opens only TT+ And KQs+ / AKo?

 

[AKQ]

So we can all agree that calling ranges vs. an UTG raise should be even tighter than the open.

But what if the UTG player plays a range where the lowest pocket pair they open with is 88?

Why wouldn't it make sense to make my calling range polar and call with low suited connectors/small pairs that don't touch the UTG range? (So that I can have more post flop maneuverability if a low flop that hits my range comes)

Say he's really tight and raises only with broadways from UTG, does it not then make even more sense to call with smaller holdings and at least wait for the flop? (but also 3 bet with broadways where I have blockers like I normally would).

Is it because the flop will hit a high card often enough to make it unprofitable to call with a range like that? Is that still applicable vs a super tight UTG player who opens only TT+ And KQs+ / AKo?

couple tips


if you believe anyone has 88 and you have 2 cards under that fold immediatley as you are a huge underdog.
As for calling with j10 versus his kqs+-AA fold immediatley unless you are so deep and he is so aggrrotard that implied odds allows you to see a flop that you will most likely be folding but he will most likely be overbetting AA 1 pair.
most the time though just fold the j10
other times shove all in preflop and scare that 88 kqs back to the MUCK

If he is super tight than he is predictable and easy to avoid or abuse.
constant attack of his blinds, even if he does defend its with a wider range in the SB or BB
he is out of position with mediocre holdings
Your range versus his UTG super tight range is screwed but he will not be dealt anything playable for many rotations
Do not call unless highly deep stacked and you have the willpower to fold the flop when you hit top pair and get reraised.
Many MTT players lose there heads against patient cash game players. do not try play with them by justifying calling with shiftier cards than your opponent and hoping to get lucky and then when you do he still has a redraw....... be the favorite don't put yourself in any pot as the underdog against such a solid patient player.
If you sit at the table and can't find out who the fish is.......It's YOU

 

[ventrolloquist]

Thanks for the advice. And I don't think I would randomly assume someone has 88 but I'm simply saying that is the bottom of their hypothetical range

For some reason I have a fear of calling tight UTG raises with stuff like QJ or KT/K9, yet I have this odd notion that if I call with 89s or 77 then if a low flop hits I will be ahead because I know it doesn't hit his range. Does that make sense? I know based on charts that this is a no-no but I just can't seem to shake the intuition that I can use this to my advantage on a flop that misses his tighter range.

 

[jaymfc]

well, that's good advice above but you have to play the player as much as the cards.
in this case, I think you can add that play once in a while.

 

[Peppinotom]

If you-re in the BB, why wouldn/t you call him, you have a defending range. Middle position another one raises and UTG folds, what do you do now???
In more than 90% you have different cards than the other, so you can say>>> he has AA, but I have 67, my cards don-t touch his range, but can you afford to see what the flop brings up?
Maybe its 667, but you sill havent won, your shove gets called and he gets a Bernstein on the river. I would stay with math and call an UTG raise only with a hand that has an above 33% probability to win. Unless its FT or I am shortstacked, that would change A LOT!

 

[ventrolloquist]

If you-re in the BB, why wouldn/t you call him, you have a defending range. Middle position another one raises and UTG folds, what do you do now???
In more than 90% you have different cards than the other, so you can say>>> he has AA, but I have 67, my cards don-t touch his range, but can you afford to see what the flop brings up?
Maybe its 667, but you sill havent won, your shove gets called and he gets a Bernstein on the river. I would stay with math and call an UTG raise only with a hand that has an above 33% probability to win. Unless its FT or I am shortstacked, that would change A LOT!

Thanks, this is a good explanation

 

[ventrolloquist]

On that note does anyone have some calling range charts they are willing to share? They seem to be really hard to come across

 

[jadaminato]

On that note does anyone have some calling range charts they are willing to share? They seem to be really hard to come across

You can find those charts on the internet, the problem is that the calling range will always depend on the table or the player, so a generic chart will not serve you. If the UTG opens but has a VPIP of 50% or more, then you can certainly pay him with pocket five and even make him 3bet to limit his hands.
But if you really want the chart, I have an excel that I can send you in the mail. As I told you, you should adjust it to each situation, but it can help you get an idea.

 

[ventrolloquist]

You can find those charts on the internet, the problem is that the calling range will always depend on the table or the player, so a generic chart will not serve you. If the UTG opens but has a VPIP of 50% or more, then you can certainly pay him with pocket five and even make him 3bet to limit his hands.
But if you really want the chart, I have an excel that I can send you in the mail. As I told you, you should adjust it to each situation, but it can help you get an idea.

Thanks, that would be amazing

Or I can make them my selves as long as I know what percentage of the original open raiser's range mine should be.

 

[eetenor]

So we can all agree that calling ranges vs. an UTG raise should be even tighter than the open.

But what if the UTG player plays a range where the lowest pocket pair they open with is 88?

Why wouldn't it make sense to make my calling range polar and call with low suited connectors/small pairs that don't touch the UTG range? (So that I can have more post flop maneuverability if a low flop that hits my range comes)

Say he's really tight and raises only with broadways from UTG, does it not then make even more sense to call with smaller holdings and at least wait for the flop? (but also 3 bet with broadways where I have blockers like I normally would).

Is it because the flop will hit a high card often enough to make it unprofitable to call with a range like that? Is that still applicable vs a super tight UTG player who opens only TT+ And KQs+ / AKo?

Thank U 4 Posting.

Do you know what a really good LAG Loose Aggressive Strategy is based on?
Google LAG strategy.
We make more money playing NL holdem when we do not play like the field plays. How does your player pool play? Do not play like that.

TAG play wins vs weak calling stations and when run good happens. Yes run good is waiting 25 hands and getting AA vs KK for stacks.


LAG play done well beats everyone.
Doing it well takes way more work on post flop play than TAG play does.

So to answer your question, if I knew a player had AA I would rather have 78 than KK so why am I folding 78 more often than KK vs that player? The 87 has implied odds, you better be good at knowing how those types of odds work.

Hope this helps