set vs two pair and set vs over set is there an escape?

I Live Poker

I Live Poker

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Hello everyone, several times I come across a flop of two pair vs set or sometimes set flop vs over set and I can never escape 'on the flop' in cases of jam. examples KQs vs 44 board: KQ4 or 66 vs 99 board: 68A.
I would like to know if you have any similar spots where you managed to escape and what made you realize that you were behind even with such a strong hand?
If possible comment with the hand replayer and hand and explanation.:)
 
Propane Goat

Propane Goat

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I think pretty much the only way to get away from these hands on the flop is if you're playing live poker and see some solid physical tells on the villain. I've never been able to fold 2-pair or a set on the flop.

For set-over-set it's pretty much oh well, try again for me, I read once that you are actually losing over the long run if you're folding sets on the flop just in case the villain has a higher set because of the odds of having that happen in the first place are very low. Even Phil Ivey gets caught up in these situations.

In a freeroll I'm never folding either hand on the flop under any circumstances.
 
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StressMit

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It's simple, you are playing the player not the cards. The bets should tell the Tale or the true story.:cool:
 
Luvepoker

Luvepoker

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Hello everyone, several times I come across a flop of two pair vs set or sometimes set flop vs over set and I can never escape 'on the flop' in cases of jam. examples KQs vs 44 board: KQ4 or 66 vs 99 board: 68A.
I would like to know if you have any similar spots where you managed to escape and what made you realize that you were behind even with such a strong hand?
If possible comment with the hand replayer and hand and explanation.:)

Its not about hands and situations, It about the there player. I have gotten away from bigger hands with some really strong ones of my own over the years. It happens but not often and most days you just dammed to lose.

You really need to read the other player. There are some who just yell out they have it and you dont. This happens both live and online. Lets take this type of situation, you flop 2 pair KQ on a KQ4 rainbow flop. The player your against is very passive and tight.. You put out a bet and they re raise you. Have your seen them bluff or ever re-raise just top pair or 2 pair. What do you think they have? They would have re-raise AK and probably AQ preflop but in this situation they did not. Would they re-raise you with AQ here? nope if there passive. Are they playing K4 or Q4? not this type of player. Do pocket 4's make sense. In this situation it does dont it. No should you just fold here? No it dont but you need to be very aware of this could be the hand. On the 2 turn you check and they bet again? Again I said very passive. You need to ask yourself would they bet 2 pair here or a straight draw. As you can see this is how you can conclude they have it. No folding is what might be better but many of us cant.

Dont just look for reasons to fold. Its not that simple and many players are not that tight so you can actually get away from a 2 pair v Set or set over set situation.
 
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thesternburglar

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Set over set happens but not frequently as far as I can tell. It's called a cooler. Sometimes you can tell you are in trouble and some times not. The two pair thing happens more frequently that I get beat with a straight or a flush. Never really a set.
 
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alien666dj

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Avoiding dangerous situations is not so easy, but you can reduce them by looking at your opponent's bet, his position, his opening range and his game statistics.
 
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fundiver199

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The answer is no. Typically you can not get away from such situations, where only 3, 5 or 6 combos of hands beat you. Its just the same like, typically you can not get away from KK preflop, when only 6 combos of AA beat you. This is why, these situations are called coolers. You cant do anything about them other than suck them up and move on to the next hand.

Of course there are some exceptions like, if you are 300BB deep and playing against a nit. But typically its just a cooler, and everyone goes broke, so in the long run its just a wash, and it does not matter. You will have 44 on KQ4, when someone else have KQ, just as often as you will have KQ, when someone else have 44. And when they have KQ, they also lose all their chips to you. Or at least get it in bad. KQ does after all have 4 outs against 44 on KQ4, so even though behind the player with KQ is not drawing dead.
 
Luan

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yesterday I played a live tournament and losing to a pair of 77 x QQ hit 2 Q on the flop I thought this number is not very good to play kk
 
N

nutself

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I think it is difficult unless you happen to be scared of your opponent, or it is bubble time of a tournament.
 
B

BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch

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That first example is a set miners dream middle/little pair with 2 big cards. Raiser will more than likely have one of the big cards and you lose your entire stack if you keep going.

Now think about it, what would they have and bet aggressively with that actually makes ANY SENSE?? A king? perhaps but you have a king so that's not likely. A queen? maybe is they're the type of player that thinks they can push you of a king for some reason or they're just an aggressive donk. JT? they'd more than likely want to see a card cheaply to hit the straight.

No, so the only thing that makes sense is calling to hit a set and they hit the set.
 
I Live Poker

I Live Poker

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I think pretty much the only way to get away from these hands on the flop is if you're playing live poker and see some solid physical tells on the villain. I've never been able to fold 2-pair or a set on the flop.

thank you, I really agree it's easier to see some indication live


For set-over-set it's pretty much oh well, try again for me, I read once that you are actually losing over the long run if you're folding sets on the flop just in case the villain has a higher set because of the odds of having that happen in the first place are very low. Even Phil Ivey gets caught up in these situations. thanks for the reply
Thanks for the information


In a freeroll I'm never folding either hand on the flop under any circumstances.

Its not about hands and situations, It about the there player. I have gotten away from bigger hands with some really strong ones of my own over the years. It happens but not often and most days you just dammed to lose.

You really need to read the other player. There are some who just yell out they have it and you dont. This happens both live and online. Lets take this type of situation, you flop 2 pair KQ on a KQ4 rainbow flop. The player your against is very passive and tight.. You put out a bet and they re raise you. Have your seen them bluff or ever re-raise just top pair or 2 pair. What do you think they have? They would have re-raise AK and probably AQ preflop but in this situation they did not. Would they re-raise you with AQ here? nope if there passive. Are they playing K4 or Q4? not this type of player. Do pocket 4's make sense. In this situation it does dont it. No should you just fold here? No it dont but you need to be very aware of this could be the hand. On the 2 turn you check and they bet again? Again I said very passive. You need to ask yourself would they bet 2 pair here or a straight draw. As you can see this is how you can conclude they have it. No folding is what might be better but many of us cant.

yes but even when it comes to players and information I can't get rid of it, but by the way it's like that I shouldn't worry.
Dont just look for reasons to fold. Its not that simple and many players are not that tight so you can actually get away from a 2 pair v Set or set over set situation.

Avoiding dangerous situations is not so easy, but you can reduce them by looking at your opponent's bet, his position, his opening range and his game statistics.
yes thanks for the answer


The answer is no. Typically you can not get away from such situations, where only 3, 5 or 6 combos of hands beat you. Its just the same like, typically you can not get away from KK preflop, when only 6 combos of AA beat you. This is why, these situations are called coolers. You cant do anything about them other than suck them up and move on to the next hand.

Of course there are some exceptions like, if you are 300BB deep and playing against a nit. But typically its just a cooler, and everyone goes broke, so in the long run its just a wash, and it does not matter. You will have 44 on KQ4, when someone else have KQ, just as often as you will have KQ, when someone else have 44. And when they have KQ, they also lose all their chips to you. Or at least get it in bad. KQ does after all have 4 outs against 44 on KQ4, so even though behind the player with KQ is not drawing dead.

Thanks for the answer, yes really the only way I can escape is this important deep tournament you have a NIT, but I think I'll stop looking for a way out of this situation as you mentioned are few combos winning. Thanks


Thank you all so much for the answers:)
 
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