Question about this betting rule

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Mdf1992

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Hi all!

I have a question about a betting rule which is the idea that you shouldn't bet a hand where all better hands call and all worse hands fold. Can someone help me understand this? What is an example of this and how would we be able to know we are in a situation like this?

Thanks so much,
Mark
 
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scubed

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I have a question about a betting rule which is the idea that you shouldn't bet a hand where all better hands call and all worse hands fold. Can someone help me understand this? What is an example of this and how would we be able to know we are in a situation like this?
A good example of this scenario is when the river has been dealt and we do NOT have the nuts when the board is really dynamic and a lot of REALLY good hands are possible.

Let us say we hit a straight on the river when the board has 4 cards of one suit and is also paired. This means someone could very easily have a flush to beat our straight, and also a chance of a full house. Depending on the action this is a scenario where we might take our showdown value and hope the straight doesn't get beat by a flush. In this case if we bet there are a lot of hands that will fold and only really strong hands will call.

It depends though.... what if the opponent who has the flush and we think he is weak? Can we bet our straight as a bluff and get him to fold? :D

There are no betting rules in poker that can't be broken. Each hand has different properties where we might play differently.
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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This rule applies most to the river. There are other reasons to bet pre-flop, flop, and turn streets.

The best example of the rule is jamming the river. What other reason could there be for making this play besides value or bluff? You don't need to protect your hand and there's nothing else you could accomplish besides getting your opponent to fold better or call worse.

Smaller river bets are usually the same, in that you would do well only making river bets for one of these two reasons. But technically there are times when it wouldn't apply. For example, you could bet small with the goal of either preventing a raise (from a passive opponent) or inducing a raise (from an aggressive opponent).
 
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Houdini9

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A good example of this scenario is when the river has been dealt and we do NOT have the nuts when the board is really dynamic and a lot of REALLY good hands are possible.

Let us say we hit a straight on the river when the board has 4 cards of one suit and is also paired. This means someone could very easily have a flush to beat our straight, and also a chance of a full house. Depending on the action this is a scenario where we might take our showdown value and hope the straight doesn't get beat by a flush. In this case if we bet there are a lot of hands that will fold and only really strong hands will call.

It depends though.... what if the opponent who has the flush and we think he is weak? Can we bet our straight as a bluff and get him to fold? :D

There are no betting rules in poker that can't be broken. Each hand has different properties where we might play differently.



Good example. ... I would add to this, even of your hand has showdown value, unless you are being trapped (you will know when they 3 bet shove btw), if you check here then you are likely leaving chips on the table.

90% of the time I would recommend a value bet of about 1/4 to 1/2 pot where its been checked to the river. This is also the next level of poker - thinking about what your opponent thinks you are thinking when you make the bet - which will also help you determine bet size.

Never be afraid of a call. If so, you probably should have folded preflop.
 
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fundiver199

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What is an example of this and how would we be able to know we are in a situation like this?


That is obviously all about hand reading, and how you think, your opponent would react with different holdings. But let me try to create an example:

Preflop
You open JsTs from HJ and get called by BB in a cash game, where stacks are 100BB deep. Pot is now 6,5BB.

Flop
Flop comes Qd9d2s so you flopped an OESD. Opponent check, you bet 3,5BB as a C-bet, opponent call. Pot is now 13,5BB.

Turn
Turn is 4s so now you picked up a flushdraw as well. Opponent once again check, you fire again this time for 8BB, opponent once again call. Pot is now 29,5BB.

River
River is Jh improving your hand to second pair. Almost all draws missed. Only KT gutshot draw got there. Opponent once again check, and now the decision is on you. If you bet again, will your opponent call with any hands worse than yours? Probably not. If he still have TT or 9X in his range after facing 2 bets, he is likely letting it go now, at least if he is a decent player.

Will he fold any hands better than yours? Probably also not, because hands better than yours are mostly top pair or better, and the runout was not scary for a top pair. So a bet here will not win you more, when you have the best hand, and it will also not get your opponent to fold a better hand. Therefore you should check behind and take your showdown value, as its called.

Lets say instead that the river card was Ad. Now you are left with J high, and if you bet, you can almost certainly get some better hands to fold. Like K high or any hand, that has paired up. So you should at least consider to bet as a bluff. You dont always have to bluff, but you should consider it. Or lets say, that the river card was 8c. Now you made a straight, and your hand is simply the nuts. This is, what you were hoping for all the time, and now of course you have to bet and try to get some value.
 
Evan Jarvis

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Hi all!

I have a question about a betting rule which is the idea that you shouldn't bet a hand where all better hands call and all worse hands fold. Can someone help me understand this? What is an example of this and how would we be able to know we are in a situation like this?

Thanks so much,
Mark


Hey Mark!


This is a video I made including that concept which has some examples


The idea is that when you are betting say top pair, you want to do so when opponent will call you with 2nd pair, or top pair worse kicker... but if you have 2nd pair... it's hard to get a worse hand to call

It also helps for bluffing because your worst hands can get better hands to fold, and why it's better to bluff with 7 high, or 5th pair instead of bluffing with say...

This concept isn't the only rule though, on flop you will often bet a hand that just needs protection (doesn't want to get outdrawn) but perhaps can't get called by worse.

The concept you're talking about is most applicable on the river and helps us think about our hands in terms of them being 'value bets' = worse hands call or 'bluff's = better hands fold.

Check out the video, I hope it will help with understanding this concept.
 
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Mdf1992

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A good example of this scenario is when the river has been dealt and we do NOT have the nuts when the board is really dynamic and a lot of REALLY good hands are possible.

Let us say we hit a straight on the river when the board has 4 cards of one suit and is also paired. This means someone could very easily have a flush to beat our straight, and also a chance of a full house. Depending on the action this is a scenario where we might take our showdown value and hope the straight doesn't get beat by a flush. In this case if we bet there are a lot of hands that will fold and only really strong hands will call.

It depends though.... what if the opponent who has the flush and we think he is weak? Can we bet our straight as a bluff and get him to fold? :D

There are no betting rules in poker that can't be broken. Each hand has different properties where we might play differently.

Thanks! This was helpful!
 
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Mdf1992

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This rule applies most to the river. There are other reasons to bet pre-flop, flop, and turn streets.

The best example of the rule is jamming the river. What other reason could there be for making this play besides value or bluff? You don't need to protect your hand and there's nothing else you could accomplish besides getting your opponent to fold better or call worse.

Smaller river bets are usually the same, in that you would do well only making river bets for one of these two reasons. But technically there are times when it wouldn't apply. For example, you could bet small with the goal of either preventing a raise (from a passive opponent) or inducing a raise (from an aggressive opponent).


Thanks!
 
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Mdf1992

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That is obviously all about hand reading, and how you think, your opponent would react with different holdings. But let me try to create an example:

Preflop
You open JsTs from HJ and get called by BB in a cash game, where stacks are 100BB deep. Pot is now 6,5BB.

Flop
Flop comes Qd9d2s so you flopped an OESD. Opponent check, you bet 3,5BB as a C-bet, opponent call. Pot is now 13,5BB.

Turn
Turn is 4s so now you picked up a flushdraw as well. Opponent once again check, you fire again this time for 8BB, opponent once again call. Pot is now 29,5BB.

River
River is Jh improving your hand to second pair. Almost all draws missed. Only KT gutshot draw got there. Opponent once again check, and now the decision is on you. If you bet again, will your opponent call with any hands worse than yours? Probably not. If he still have TT or 9X in his range after facing 2 bets, he is likely letting it go now, at least if he is a decent player.

Will he fold any hands better than yours? Probably also not, because hands better than yours are mostly top pair or better, and the runout was not scary for a top pair. So a bet here will not win you more, when you have the best hand, and it will also not get your opponent to fold a better hand. Therefore you should check behind and take your showdown value, as its called.

Lets say instead that the river card was Ad. Now you are left with J high, and if you bet, you can almost certainly get some better hands to fold. Like K high or any hand, that has paired up. So you should at least consider to bet as a bluff. You dont always have to bluff, but you should consider it. Or lets say, that the river card was 8c. Now you made a straight, and your hand is simply the nuts. This is, what you were hoping for all the time, and now of course you have to bet and try to get some value.

Beautiful example--thanks fundiver!
 
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Mdf1992

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Hey Mark!


This is a video I made including that concept which has some examples

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBxLj4z96Ws

The idea is that when you are betting say top pair, you want to do so when opponent will call you with 2nd pair, or top pair worse kicker... but if you have 2nd pair... it's hard to get a worse hand to call

It also helps for bluffing because your worst hands can get better hands to fold, and why it's better to bluff with 7 high, or 5th pair instead of bluffing with say...

This concept isn't the only rule though, on flop you will often bet a hand that just needs protection (doesn't want to get outdrawn) but perhaps can't get called by worse.

The concept you're talking about is most applicable on the river and helps us think about our hands in terms of them being 'value bets' = worse hands call or 'bluff's = better hands fold.

Check out the video, I hope it will help with understanding this concept.

Beautiful example--thanks very much! And I'll check out your video :D
Hey but you said "It also helps for bluffing because your worst hands can get better hands to fold, and why it's better to bluff with 7 high, or 5th pair instead of bluffing with say...". Could you finish this? It's better to bluff with 7 high or 5th pair instead of bluffing with what? I've seen similar ppl say stuff like this and I'm wondering why it's better to bluff with worse hands. I don't get the logic
 
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