Pot odds in knockout tournaments

thedarkman

thedarkman

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This is from a PLO tournament. Normally I would fold with a junk hand like this but up against two very short stacks it was worth the risk, and paid off.

Not sure how this would play out for hold 'em but it seems sound here.
 

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CadoARAJ

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I have this question too. I want to know if there is a way to calculate the pot odds plus Aev accordingly to the money we can receive at a PKO tourney, just like the way we have to calculate at final table when each position has a ladder up at the prize system.
 
thedarkman

thedarkman

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I have this question too. I want to know if there is a way to calculate the pot odds plus Aev accordingly to the money we can receive at a PKO tourney, just like the way we have to calculate at final table when each position has a ladder up at the prize system.


Not sure, I got lucky in this tournament and had by far the biggest stack on the table, so it was worth risking a few chips to take a bounty. As it played out, I took two. I finished well inside the money though a long way from the final table but pot limit Omaha is such a risky game I'm always glad to finish anywhere.
 
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fundiver199

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I have this question too. I want to know if there is a way to calculate the pot odds plus Aev accordingly to the money we can receive at a PKO tourney, just like the way we have to calculate at final table when each position has a ladder up at the prize system.

You calculate the pot odds by converting the value of the bounty to chips. Lets say the starting stack is 5.000 chips, and a starting bounty is 25% of the buyin as in most typical PKOs. Then a bounty is worth 1.250 chips. So if for instance blinds are 100/50, and your opponent has moved all in for his last 1.500 chips, and it folds to you in big blind, then you would have to pay 1.400 to win a pot of 1.500 x 2 + 150 (SB and ante) + 1.250 (bounty) = 4.400. So you only need around 32% equity to make this call in pure chip EV assuming of course you cover, so that you can actually win the bounty.

As players get knocked out, the remaining price pool gets smaller, and therefore the chip value of a bounty gets larger. So late in the tournament a starting bounty might be worth 1.500 or 1.700 chips rather than 1.250. And of course if a player has accumulated a larger bounty in a PKO, then that will be worth more. But typically stacks are also deeper, when its late in a PKO.
 
CadoARAJ

CadoARAJ

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You calculate the pot odds by converting the value of the bounty to chips. Lets say the starting stack is 5.000 chips, and a starting bounty is 25% of the buyin as in most typical PKOs. Then a bounty is worth 1.250 chips. So if for instance blinds are 100/50, and your opponent has moved all in for his last 1.500 chips, and it folds to you in big blind, then you would have to pay 1.400 to win a pot of 1.500 x 2 + 150 (SB and ante) + 1.250 (bounty) = 4.400. So you only need around 32% equity to make this call in pure chip EV assuming of course you cover, so that you can actually win the bounty.

As players get knocked out, the remaining price pool gets smaller, and therefore the chip value of a bounty gets larger. So late in the tournament a starting bounty might be worth 1.500 or 1.700 chips rather than 1.250. And of course if a player has accumulated a larger bounty in a PKO, then that will be worth more. But typically stacks are also deeper, when its late in a PKO.


Nice explanation. I liked and is a good way to assume calls to collect money at PKO tourneys.
 
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fundiver199

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Here is an example from a 9 man KO SnG on pokerstars. The starting stack is 1.500 chips, and the bounty is 25% of the price pool, so a bounty is worth 375 chips. Without the bounty we would still be getting a good price to call in BB closing the action, but even so we should probably just fold, since 82s is not a very good hand at all, and chips won are not quite as valuable as chips lost.

However with the bounty, which is essentially an extra 375 chip ante, it would be a huge blunder to not call here with any two cards. I plugged the hand into ICMizer, and calling with 82s netted me 0,73% of the price pool, assuming he is jamming at equilibrium, which is 35% of hands. Even 72o, which is the worst hand against his range, would have won me 0,46% of the price pool, which is far to large an edge to give up on.

CardsChat Poker Hands Converter

Of course a situation like this is pretty easy, because I was closing the action. When that is not the case, we need to understand, that other players will also want to content for that bounty, so they have much more incentive to enter the pot, than they would have in a normal tournament. And for that reason we should often isolate aggressively.

In a normal tournament it would be pretty far out of line to move all-in preflop for 28BB with 22, and admittedly even with the bounty this was a little bit borderline. But with the bounty, which again is essentially an extra 375 chip ante, there was just a ton of dead money in this pot. The guy limping rarely has a good hand, and CO calling the small raise might be in there with total garbage, because he just want to win the bounty.

This hand is also interesting to look at from the perspective of HJ, because he made a pretty significant sizing mistake, which ended up costing him a bunch of chips. When he entered the hand, the pot was officially 217 chips, but with the bounty in play it was actually 592 chips, so by making it just 150 chips he gave other players a laughably good price to join the action. He should have gone much larger to isolate the all-in player and push people like me sitting behind with 22 out of the pot.

CardsChat Poker Hands Converter
 
thedarkman

thedarkman

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That's quite a comprehensive answer. Not sure I can live up to it, but will bear it in mind.

Was playing the hi-lo tonight and got put out by a total moron who raised with garbage. I hit top pair with a nut low draw and a flush draw. He raised all-in and sucked out runner runner.

Much prefer the KO format for hold 'em as well as Omaha.
 
thedarkman

thedarkman

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I love these replays. Not sure I'd have called with that hand because losing would have dented a small stack. At the Omaha the other night I had a really big stack, was one of the chip leaders and it was still fairly early so it wasn't much of a risk.
 
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eetenor

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I love these replays. Not sure I'd have called with that hand because losing would have dented a small stack. At the Omaha the other night I had a really big stack, was one of the chip leaders and it was still fairly early so it wasn't much of a risk.


Thank you for posting

We call because of the equity which is based on winning the bounty now. We have trained ourselves to think our chips have the most value on the FT but in KO tournies the bounties lessen that FT chip value therefore calling in this spot to play fit or fold is the correct play even at this stack depth. and certainly for this small raise.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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