Pot odds for call with any cards

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Sagory

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In the freeroll tournaments I'm facing a lot of limpers. When I'm in the SB is it ok to complete with any cards when I get pot odds of 10:1 or better? Or better fold trash like 72o in such a situation?
 
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Sagory

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Nobody knows? Or just a dull question?
 
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LetterRip

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So with a BTN limp and a passive BB with no ante you are calling .5 to win (1+.5 + 1), which means you need 20% equity. Any two cards have enough equity to limp from the SB vs a wide BTN limp. However we are also interested in post flop playability. If it is a passive table guaranteed to check down if everyone misses and only bet when they hit, then you can play any two cards still.

If they will bluff post flop, you need a tighter preflop limping range since you won't realize the equity of your weaker hands. Also your defending skills are important - if you defend vs postflop aggression mostly via calls - then you need a tighter range. If you know how to defend vs postflop aggression with raising some speculative hands at the correct frequency - then you can play more speculative hands. (Since SB limp w passive BB will always be MW we should defend less post flop, since the defense is split between the other player in the pot).

For your 10:1 - that means 3 players limped in ahead of you. So you only need to defend postflop 1/4 of the time you would if heads up.


Also important is can you get away from a hand that is beat - if your 72o flops two pair, and is facing a lot of aggression on a straight, flush, or pair board - then it is probably a hand to be layed down. So if you will call off too light, play tighter preflop to avoid donking off your stack by being too stubborn with a weak two pair.

So passive limps w passive BB, and everyone passive post flop - can play 100%
passive limps w passive BB, limited bluffing post flop, can defend OK - say 60% of hands
if they are more aggression post flop, then play tighter still.


If you are splitting your range (you raise some hands rather than always limp) you have to worry about limp/reraise trappers.
 
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Sagory

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Thanks LetterRip!

I was unsure about the equity of any 2 cards. I thought it is something around 10%.
 
MishkaZL

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Without a doubt, you should not play with junk. It is better to be patient and wait for good cards, despite the game of your opponents.
 
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Hermus

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Playing passively pre-flop just really invites the players left to act to put pressure on you since you're representing a weak range. If you're considering calling in the small blind you'll need a good exploitative reason to do so. Generally, cold calling or limping against good players is not profitable from any position apart from the button (most people still play or 3-bet or fold strategy from the button) or big blind (since you're closing the action).

Limping behind in the small blind could be the best play if you know that the player in the big blind is a weak passive player. Even then, you're probably better off playing only those hands that can hit it big in multiway pots, like suited connectors, suited gappers, and suited aces and kings. As other comments rightly point out, playability post-flop is also a concern. If you know for sure the big blind is checking behind with a 100% frequency, you'll get the right pot odds to call with any two pre. Even under this very sketchy assumption reversed implied odds and playing OOP post-flop will likely make it a -EV play with most junk holdings.

For most players on most tables, it's just better to play a (3-)bet or fold strategy from the small blind. It makes the strategy significantly more straightforward, you're not capping your range, and you're not risking putting yourself in awkward spots with very marginal holdings.
 
Evan Jarvis

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In the freeroll tournaments I'm facing a lot of limpers. When I'm in the SB is it ok to complete with any cards when I get pot odds of 10:1 or better? Or better fold trash like 72o in such a situation?


I would stick with completing with hands that can make some sort of straight or flush in situations like that.

Pot odds are great and all when it comes to defending in a headsup situation, but when you are dealing with a multiway situation you need to consider more the playability of the hand.

If you make a big hand like 2 pair or trips with 72o are you likely to get paid off by someone holding worse? or are you likely to pay off someone who is holding better.

This is why sticking with connectors, suited hands and high card hands is preferred when completing in these spots. It's not about seeing as many flops as you can, it's about seeing flops where you can get paid off if you make a decent hand :)
 
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63burner

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if you have EV, go for it..

If you have pot odds, EV, and decent cards, play it out, by all means. It is good TAG aggression, works in long run, good luck, listen to others, we're all trying to help.
 
Phoenix Wright

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Good analysis with some responses given, but just because we can play any two cards profitably: does that mean we should limp in cheaply?

True, we might make it +EV due to pot odds etc., but is it "optimal" (or at least trying to maximize the situation)? In the case of so many limpers (common in homegames and smallest stakes games), I'd experiment with raise sizing to see how they react. In the case of passive limpers, they are often times calling stations too.

They all might continue if action goes Open-limp, limp, limp...you raise 3x, then call, call, call etc. 3x gets a ton of callers still, but what about opening 5x? What about 10x? At some point, you'll eventually figure out where people begin folding to your open-raises, then you can dial it down a little to raise big with stronger holdings while keeping their junk hands in their range.

For example, say we open-raise 3x and pretty much everyone is still limping/calling it. We try 4x and same story. On open-raising 5x, most are letting us take the pot pre-flop now. With this scenario, I might begin raising 4x as my default sizing when I want to open-raise now. It is the biggest amount (value) I can get away with raising while many still continue. Playing a TAG strategy with these open-raises might potentially be even more profitable than limping behind with any two cards at a cheap price because we'll make much more on the times we do hit.

What we DON'T want is to be playing a super wide range (like any two cards, or even 50% VPIP [half of the hands is still atrociously high]) AND open-raising huge. In that case, we are just putting many chips in pre-flop with less information and it is more likely we'll better utilize the information of the Flop and post-Flop cards than limping opponents.

Typically, opening bigger should entail playing less hands preflop and opening smaller indicates usually playing a wider range of hands preflop. This is of course connected to pot odds because with smaller open-raises, we are risking fewer chips to steal the blinds/antes, so we can afford to get "caught" a little more often.

Is open-raising something like 10x standard? No, of course not :D but neither is UTG matching the Big Blind and action limping all the way around the table :D In these cases, our sizing adjustments are clearly exploitative, but it takes a little experimenting in the moment to see just how big or small is required for each table. :cool:
 
roger perkins

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I remember sitting next to Raymer one time and a guy was taking a long time to call in a similar situation and Greg said "call, no 2 cards are a 1 to 10 dog to even AA"
 
NWPatriot

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I am not a big fan of relying on simple pot odds for all my decisions. Pot odds can lead us astray in a number of ways.

72o may have 26% equity against a single 15% range. But as we start adding players into the mix, against 2 players w a 30% range we are now down to 18% and against 3 players with 30% ranges we are now down to 14%.

But as was mentioned, we will likely never realize this equity (equity realization). We will face a bet on the flop and what kind of board do we need to call with? There will certainly be overcards on the board and with 3 other players, we will be probably behind even further, even if we catch a 7.

Play solid poker, all the time. There is a lot of poker left to play in this hand, save your chips for a better spot.

Good luck and God bless.
 
Poker_Mike

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In the freeroll tournaments I'm facing a lot of limpers. When I'm in the SB is it ok to complete with any cards when I get pot odds of 10:1 or better? Or better fold trash like 72o in such a situation?


In general I like to fold trash when I am OOP.

When getting 10:1 - yes you can complete with any two cards.

But I have seen 72o pay A2s on a 22x flop!

So my question is - what do you hope to accomplish with 72 from the SB with 4 (or 6 with the blinds) limpers?

Like Evan says - you might as well complete with a hand that has a chance of making the nuts.

Good luck !
 
Plut41

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If it's like half the blind I call it with any two. I just recently had a hand where opponent just limped with aces and I called 0,5BB with 72 and hit the 22 on the flop. This guy doubled me up.
 
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