Not worth it to play at micro stakes?

[magnumite]

I find it very frustrating, as I play at micro stakes because that's what my bankroll currently permits (however I do have money from my job I can put into my account if necessary to play higher stakes). The reason I feel frustrated is because logic does not seem to apply at microstakes. I get called when I really shouldn't, all ins happen when they really shouldn't etc.

I am wondering if I should move up to low stakes or something so that the games happen to have a bit more logic behind them. Or is it best to keep trying at the micro stakes and beat them first before moving up?

 

[nml]

If you can’t beat the micro stakes, you won’t beat the low stakes.

You claim that logic doesn’t apply, but the reality is that you aren’t adjusting your game correctly to your opponent’s.

- if a player calls with every thing, raise him with your premium hands and bet for value when you get a hand

- if a player is ultra aggressive, wait until you get a big hand and get his stack by showing some weakness (check, call especially)

- if a player keeps beating you with random junk, like 84o, you need to be raising more and making him pay big money to play

Make some adjustments and you’ll be fine. If you can not adjust correctly with very poor players, why would you think that better players would be easier?

 

[magnumite]

If you can’t beat the micro stakes, you won’t beat the low stakes.

You claim that logic doesn’t apply, but the reality is that you aren’t adjusting your game correctly to your opponent’s.

- if a player calls with every thing, raise him with your premium hands and bet for value when you get a hand

- if a player is ultra aggressive, wait until you get a big hand and get his stack by showing some weakness (check, call especially)

- if a player keeps beating you with random junk, like 84o, you need to be raising more and making him pay big money to play

Make some adjustments and you’ll be fine. If you can not adjust correctly with very poor players, why would you think that better players would be easier?

What you say is true. I just think that I have studied for higher stakes, as in I am realizing now I should study for micro stakes rather than study the way that players at higher stakes play.

 

[CGreen]

It is quite an adjustment when you want to practice what you are learning as good strategy against a game where that strategy is not really being used. I like nml's comment! I am realizing this more and more. It will help us to be well rounded players! Adjusting to the table we play at IS a strategy The free tournaments have been super frustrating to me. But, I just realized what I need to be doing differently to have a shot at sweeping up chips in those! Many poker books even touch on the subject of the difference in play at "weak tables".

 

[nml]

What you say is true. I just think that I have studied for higher stakes, as in I am realizing now I should study for micro stakes rather than study the way that players at higher stakes play.

I think you’ve got the right mindset!

Be flexible and base your play on your opponents, not your stakes

 

[DeN4iK310882]

If you can’t beat the micro stakes, you won’t beat the low stakes.

You claim that logic doesn’t apply, but the reality is that you aren’t adjusting your game correctly to your opponent’s.

- if a player calls with every thing, raise him with your premium hands and bet for value when you get a hand

- if a player is ultra aggressive, wait until you get a big hand and get his stack by showing some weakness (check, call especially)

- if a player keeps beating you with random junk, like 84o, you need to be raising more and making him pay big money to play

Make some adjustments and you’ll be fine. If you can not adjust correctly with very poor players, why would you think that better players would be easier?

I also play in the micro-limits. It seems to me that people play there only for fun. All your advice is very correct, I will try to be more patient in tournaments. In them, the game is different from the games on the cash tables. Thank you.

 

[CGreen]

Hi!
I may need to start a new thread to ask this question, but it sort of goes along with the micro stakes theme!
In general...with tournaments...at what buy in level do you start to see "regular good" play? I like playing live cash games, but am wanting to do some tournaments as well. I had thought of starting with some online tournaments. I have done a few freerolls, and am not impressed!

Today, I purposely committed tournament suicide, by going all in on just a draw lol! I felt that the tournament had already been ruined for me early on! It was not the practice that I was looking for today. I had just sat down at table and did not know anyone yet. I got a decent pair (10,10) and bet. Then, someone goes, All In. In the early stages of a tournament, it seems unwise to go All In with my holdings, so I folded. The All In person was half stacked already, so I had thought about just calling anyway, bc I know how Free tourneys can be! Sure enough, when the same player went all in against someone else, they called and the All In guy had NOTHING!
I finally had another hand worth getting into the pot with..AJs in good position. Then, as if I had a target on me, someone called All In! I had my original starting stack still. AJs had potential, but once again...not worth and All In in early stages of tournament. I did not know how this player played yet. I found out later, once again, that in the case of that player, I probably had him crushed with my modest holdings!
So, I went all in shortly thereafter with a trouble hand on a draw lol! I was tired of playing, so basically was quitting!
Anyway....
Asking a question and venting at the same time!
Thnx!

 

[Pablo22]

That was very good advice from nml.

 

[nml]

Hi!
I may need to start a new thread to ask this question, but it sort of goes along with the micro stakes theme!
In general...with tournaments...at what buy in level do you start to see "regular good" play? I like playing live cash games, but am wanting to do some tournaments as well. I had thought of starting with some online tournaments. I have done a few freerolls, and am not impressed!

Today, I purposely committed tournament suicide, by going all in on just a draw lol! I felt that the tournament had already been ruined for me early on! It was not the practice that I was looking for today. I had just sat down at table and did not know anyone yet. I got a decent pair (10,10) and bet. Then, someone goes, All In. In the early stages of a tournament, it seems unwise to go All In with my holdings, so I folded. The All In person was half stacked already, so I had thought about just calling anyway, bc I know how Free tourneys can be! Sure enough, when the same player went all in against someone else, they called and the All In guy had NOTHING!
I finally had another hand worth getting into the pot with..AJs in good position. Then, as if I had a target on me, someone called All In! I had my original starting stack still. AJs had potential, but once again...not worth and All In in early stages of tournament. I did not know how this player played yet. I found out later, once again, that in the case of that player, I probably had him crushed with my modest holdings!
So, I went all in shortly thereafter with a trouble hand on a draw lol! I was tired of playing, so basically was quitting!
Anyway....
Asking a question and venting at the same time!
Thnx!

There’s fish at every level, and at the microstakes basically every player has some leaks in their game. In .01/.02 or < $1 buy in’s, you’ll see a lot of players with terrible VPIP/PFR splits, like 65/3 or 50/0. But you’ve also got people playing TAG with 12/10, which is probably enough to make a decent amount there.

I don’t think there’s a magic level where suddenly every one is making logical decisions - mostly because a good player will vary their play to keep non-thinking players guessing.

As an aside, without too much knowledge, AJs probably had decent equity in that situation. In freerolls, you’ll see a ton of players shoving with Axs, middle pocket pairs, and any two broadway cards because they don’t understand how mediocre those hands are. Remember, when someone shoves your raise, compare your amount to call to what you’d win to get pot odds, then compare that to your equity. You were, at worst, a coin flip odds and likely much lower than 50% pot odds!

 

[CGreen]

There’s fish at every level, and at the microstakes basically every player has some leaks in their game. In .01/.02 or < $1 buy in’s, you’ll see a lot of players with terrible VPIP/PFR splits, like 65/3 or 50/0. But you’ve also got people playing TAG with 12/10, which is probably enough to make a decent amount there.

I don’t think there’s a magic level where suddenly every one is making logical decisions - mostly because a good player will vary their play to keep non-thinking players guessing.

As an aside, without too much knowledge, AJs probably had decent equity in that situation. In freerolls, you’ll see a ton of players shoving with Axs, middle pocket pairs, and any two broadway cards because they don’t understand how mediocre those hands are. Remember, when someone shoves your raise, compare your amount to call to what you’d win to get pot odds, then compare that to your equity. You were, at worst, a coin flip odds and likely much lower than 50% pot odds!

Yes! Thank you so much, nml! Great advice! Now that I know what some players in early stages of those tournaments are shoving with, I will use pot odds and EV calculations to take some chances! Thnx for your excellent input on this thread!

 

[magnumite]

I think you’ve got the right mindset!

Be flexible and base your play on your opponents, not your stakes

Thank you for the info! I'll definitely be using it when I play again.

 

[magnumite]

I think you’ve got the right mindset!

Be flexible and base your play on your opponents, not your stakes

It is quite an adjustment when you want to practice what you are learning as good strategy against a game where that strategy is not really being used. I like nml's comment! I am realizing this more and more. It will help us to be well rounded players! Adjusting to the table we play at IS a strategy The free tournaments have been super frustrating to me. But, I just realized what I need to be doing differently to have a shot at sweeping up chips in those! Many poker books even touch on the subject of the difference in play at "weak tables".

I wish the best of luck to you in your microstakes/free roll gameplay!

 

[CGreen]

Thanks, magnumite! Same to you!

 

[notahead]

Contrary to what a lot people may say I completely understand your logic. It seems so hard to beat none thinking players. If you happen to player higher levels in live games your meta game just doesn't know how to play for pennies you want make move cause it should work. But vs people with disregard for money will just be calling stations. its like they just want to see what you have. Then when their correct just want to keep calling you every time. So yes you can beat micros but it will be grind you really need to play ABC poker. I truly think in micro levels the only opponent that can wreck you is yourself. If you have decent extra income for poker I would skip the very small games all together maybe start out like NL 5 or 10 as players here not bad and use their minds some what. Hope this advice helps you in some form or another.

 

[kygamblr09]

I think its a grave mistake not playing at micro level stakes. There is so much to learn from grinding it out the hard way. Not to say any othr level is not hard but when you hav a small bankroll then it teaches you how manage small amounts of funds so when you do hit it big you can manage big funds. Also you get a feel for the game and can learn the ends and outs of poker from micro. The flip side to micro vs higher stakes is that you deal with less skilled or what seem to be lesser skilled players.

 

[mulldoon787]

any stakes is the same when u need the money or not

 

[Nathan Williams]

This is a common mistake that many newer or inexperienced poker players make, thinking that by moving up to play against more "logical" players, they will win more.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you are essentially saying that by playing against better more skilled players, you will somehow show a bigger profit.

This is just never going to be a true statement.

While the "wild" players at the lower stakes can be frustrating to play against at times, this is also why they are so profitable to play against.

It is very important that you learn how to beat these types of players first before jumping into games with much stronger competition.

 

[danielcai]

I understand that you might find people at micro stake hard to play against since they make moves that are not "standard", like betting pot every time and goes all-in very often. But moving up to higher stakes do not necessarily means that you will play against more "logical" players since bad players could be at every stakes. The better thing to do I think is to have reads on the individual players and adjust to them accordingly, no matter what stakes you are playing in.

 

[Mikeloti13]

You cant prepare for poker thinking everyone is a great player and everyone play the same. Poker is all about adjusting to different kinds of opponents. Thats the only way to be good, doesnt matter what stakes you are playing.

 

[Serjo600]

I think in order to beat the limits we need to start with at least nl25

 

[magnumite]

This is a common mistake that many newer or inexperienced poker players make, thinking that by moving up to play against more "logical" players, they will win more.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you are essentially saying that by playing against better more skilled players, you will somehow show a bigger profit.

This is just never going to be a true statement.

While the "wild" players at the lower stakes can be frustrating to play against at times, this is also why they are so profitable to play against.

It is very important that you learn how to beat these types of players first before jumping into games with much stronger competition.

Thanks for the advice! I agree with what you're saying and am going to now be grinding at the micro stakes in order to figure it out.

 

[pirateglenn]

Microstakes - a different view

Hi there,

i read your post and it got me thinking..in fact, i gave it considerable thought as i remember a time when i felt the same way as you. I was not getting good results a few years ago and thought the answer was that i was better than the level i was playing at..i was wrong.
Whilst i appreciate this may not be the way you think, its often too easy to bump up the buy ins to maximise profitability and play a better level of opponent, the problem with that thought process is - there are weak players at all levels and ultra aggressive donkeys at all levels..
What did i do?

I played micro millions and set myself a goal - i budgeted out $70 and played a series of events including the main event..my goal was to hit $100 profit by the end as a minimum goal..i also said that if i hit my target or beyond i would reward myself with the difference - i incentivised myself.

This was 2016 and i won $652 dollars by the end of my $70 investment.

I then went and bought myself a PS4 ...the point i am making is..dont give up, keep trying and record your play and see any profit as a profit

regards

pirateglenn

 

[hugh blair]

I find it very frustrating, as I play at micro stakes because that's what my bankroll currently permits (however I do have money from my job I can put into my account if necessary to play higher stakes). The reason I feel frustrated is because logic does not seem to apply at microstakes. I get called when I really shouldn't, all ins happen when they really shouldn't etc.

I am wondering if I should move up to low stakes or something so that the games happen to have a bit more logic behind them. Or is it best to keep trying at the micro stakes and beat them first before moving up?

Playing at any stakes can be frustrating poker is poker and people are people even in 100 or 1000 dollar tournaments people still jam Q9 A8 ect long list her good luck

 

[Peppinotom]

I recently changed from only freerolls to microgames and freerolls and yes, you can see a difference. I play mostly MTT's so maybe it's not completely the same. While the beginnings of the Micro Tournament seem to be the same as in freerolls (84o wins), one can see a slightly change, when it comes to the bubble and ITM. So I think there are different levels of "logic" or as I say "REAL POKER". I'm sure, there are some "rich" boys, that are able to throw away 50 or 100 bucks every weekend and just put their money on marginal cards. They are happy, when they win at least 2 or 3 "Monster hands" with their 78s. I'm sure you'll find these ppl as well in higher leagues, that throw away 10.000 every weekend just because they can, but they are just LESS THAN IN MICROSTAKES!
So answering your question: dont rely on logic, everyblody has it's own logic, and there always comes that "special moment", when you KNOW, your TQs in hearts will bring you the pot!
Or you think your laggy opponent, playing 9 of ten hands, is dead now, as you're holding KK and he turns ariound his Aces... it's just POKER

 

[magnumite]

This is a common mistake that many newer or inexperienced poker players make, thinking that by moving up to play against more "logical" players, they will win more.

The problem with this line of thinking is that you are essentially saying that by playing against better more skilled players, you will somehow show a bigger profit.

This is just never going to be a true statement.

While the "wild" players at the lower stakes can be frustrating to play against at times, this is also why they are so profitable to play against.

It is very important that you learn how to beat these types of players first before jumping into games with much stronger competition.

Hi there,

i read your post and it got me thinking..in fact, i gave it considerable thought as i remember a time when i felt the same way as you. I was not getting good results a few years ago and thought the answer was that i was better than the level i was playing at..i was wrong.
Whilst i appreciate this may not be the way you think, its often too easy to bump up the buy ins to maximise profitability and play a better level of opponent, the problem with that thought process is - there are weak players at all levels and ultra aggressive donkeys at all levels..
What did i do?

I played micro millions and set myself a goal - i budgeted out $70 and played a series of events including the main event..my goal was to hit $100 profit by the end as a minimum goal..i also said that if i hit my target or beyond i would reward myself with the difference - i incentivised myself.

This was 2016 and i won $652 dollars by the end of my $70 investment.

I then went and bought myself a PS4 ...the point i am making is..dont give up, keep trying and record your play and see any profit as a profit

regards

pirateglenn

Thank you for sharing your progress! Definitely gets me feeling motivated. After reading all the replies on this thread, I can agree with you that there are trash players at every level and you simply need to figure out how to adapt to them in order to get better at poker.