Egon Towst
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
diamond_06_06
Rock Star
Silver Level
I have to agree with Zach and OzExorcist on this one. There are times where betting is a better play than checking, such as having a made but vulnerable hand. Maybe the buckster you should have said that there is absolutely no reason to ever bluff at a dry side pot it is not always correct to check down a dry side pot.
PokerVic
Visionary
Silver Level
I don't know if anyone has mentioned it, but this is for anyone who is thinking of betting into an empty side pot with a weak (or non-existent) hand. The person you're up against might be very strong, and may be checking it down for the reasons explained in this thread.
I've checked down some pretty strong hands in tournaments, and I've also busted a few players out just because they were stupid enough to bluff the side pot.
It's like, "Well, I wasn't going to bet, but now that you've opened up the side pot, I think I'll bust you too."
I've checked down some pretty strong hands in tournaments, and I've also busted a few players out just because they were stupid enough to bluff the side pot.
It's like, "Well, I wasn't going to bet, but now that you've opened up the side pot, I think I'll bust you too."
F
feitr
Legend
Silver Level
As a general rule you should check it down, sure, but i don't think it is correct to say you should always check it down. First of all it is very rare that there is no side pot, and in many cases the side pot is actually as large, or larger, than the main pot.
Another thing is that by betting into even a dry side pot, alot of ppl will call with pretty marginal hands simply because they want to eliminate the all in player and since you "shouldn't" bet into a dry side pot they just can't bring themselves to fold. So if you hit a good hand you can actually often create a nice side pot. That said, the only time i remember actually betting into an all in pot was with 2nd nut flush or something, and that was largly because the donk in the pot had bet after the flop into a dry side pot so there was a nice side pot.
However, donks who make cbets into all in pots with A high or middle pair etc. should be shot.
Another thing is that by betting into even a dry side pot, alot of ppl will call with pretty marginal hands simply because they want to eliminate the all in player and since you "shouldn't" bet into a dry side pot they just can't bring themselves to fold. So if you hit a good hand you can actually often create a nice side pot. That said, the only time i remember actually betting into an all in pot was with 2nd nut flush or something, and that was largly because the donk in the pot had bet after the flop into a dry side pot so there was a nice side pot.
However, donks who make cbets into all in pots with A high or middle pair etc. should be shot.
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notevnifubeg
Enthusiast
Silver Level
ok first off I'd like to say that Rob does not speak for me, for the purpose of this or any poker argument, how much money anyone has made is irrelevant. I talk about my money in my blog (yes I know, shameless advertising) but you'll notice I'm not going to talk about any of that in most of the forums because it's simply irrelevant. A good solid poker strategy shouldn't have to have authority backing it, it should make sense on its own.
Basically, I haven't said that this is a bad guideline, I'm just saying that it's not always in the best interest of everyone to eliminate a player, and that if the side pot is big enough, bluffing for that can give you enough of a chip advantage to justify letting a small stack stay in and not bust.
Basically my problem is this - I always like to understand things, I don't like just memorizing stuff. This goes from topics like poker, baseball, math, etc. When I was learning addition we learned about number bases so we would understand why we carry when we get to 10. It's how I've been raised to learn. I approach everything that way. So for that reason I just cannot stand it when basic rules are stated without the corresponding logic behind it. It may be the fastest way to start making money to just teach beginners the basic strategy without any logic, and believe me that's how a lot of people learn.
Many people (even on this site) still don't understand topics such as why we bet. So sure if the beginners in this section are looking for the fast track to beating the low-stakes sngs they can probably follow guidelines like that, but if they're actually trying to learn the game, it's important to understand why we do things. That way, they'll recognize the exceptions, and figure out for themselves when to do different things, rather than just be like "well the forum topic said never to bet when a player is all-in without the nuts". The great thing about nlhe is that there are an infinite amount of situations and the best players are the ones who understand the game and can adapt to new situations. I understand this is the beginner's section, but we need to be teaching these people the reasoning behind why we do things, not just general guidelines that could be true 95% of the time. Because it's that 5% that will make a decent player into a great one.
As I mentioned, I'm still learning, hell I'll never stop learning about the game, that's what's so great about it. As long as poker's still around I'll hopefully still be involved and learning about it in 50 years. There's always more to learn. So I apologize if I come off as a bit harsh, I'm certainly not trying to say I'm superior to anyone, I'm just saying I think we need to approach giving advice to newer players as a good foundation for learning, helping them to understand the basic concepts before they start getting into advanced topics without having fully mastered the fundamentals. I've been playing poker for several years now and only as recent as within a year did I learn the logic behind why we bet and the reasoning behind the plays I make. That's when I stopped becoming a gambler and became a real poker player. I'm trying to help other players the same way. The sooner you start approaching the game with an attempt to understand it and don't try to take shortcuts and memorize rules, the more successful you'll be imo. This is true in many aspects of life, but definitely poker.
Sorry for the length, seems like I'm writing a book lol.
zachvac
I'd like to thank you for taking the time to express this viewpoint. It may slow my progress, but any new skill that I am trying to develop is of little practical use to me without this underlying base of logic. Without it I personally am unable to think outside of the box when a creative answer would better serve me.
nccali
Rock Star
Platinum Level
now i know i'm not the best player but, if the all-in is some-1 low on chip count..just trying to stay in the game...and i know i got him beat i'l raise..but i need to see that i got the pot won..if not i agree with every-1 just checking it off... if you dont have it for shure then check-it...but if u do try and get some more chip's in your stack:deal:
B
BostonRobber
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Near term gain long term???
Checking it down or essentially not bluffing here makes sense most of the time since your table image is also at stake. If you feel like a sequence of unbeatable hands are coming your way by all means bluff away your table cred. You will be called incessantly from that point forward by everyone which will work to your benefit. If however you feel the normal distribution coming on beware, you will need to get lucky to avoid the bulls eye on your back.
Checking it down or essentially not bluffing here makes sense most of the time since your table image is also at stake. If you feel like a sequence of unbeatable hands are coming your way by all means bluff away your table cred. You will be called incessantly from that point forward by everyone which will work to your benefit. If however you feel the normal distribution coming on beware, you will need to get lucky to avoid the bulls eye on your back.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
If in this situation you bet big, driving out anyone, You become responsible for the short stack double up, and will suffer the Uncle Ben curse! That means you really need to flop the nut flush, or a boat, or at bare minimum a set and are taking full responsibility for shorty sticking around, or not.!
It is far far better to get rid of shorty than to take on that full responsibility.
It is far far better to get rid of shorty than to take on that full responsibility.
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Two things:
One, this thread is kinda old. But more importantly...
Two, if you'd read the whole thing, you'd notice that it's not "every-1" that agrees with checking down every single time. There are times, places and reasons for doing otherwise sometimes.
zachvac
Legend
Silver Level
hmm, personally I always thought it was best to win the most chips/money, not to make sure not to have responsibility for someone not busting. Also note that sometimes it is a good thing not to bust someone.
And of course if you had variance insurance you wouldn't worry about results because they wouldn't affect your bottom line, it'd just be whether the opponent hit their hand.
uvrayz
Rock Star
Silver Level
good advice
ive noticed that before too and i commend you on posting this thread aint nothin more i hate then when a player can be eliminated if the donk would stop betting i espescially hate it when they bet on draws that never happen and someone with a pair could have beaten them
ive noticed that before too and i commend you on posting this thread aint nothin more i hate then when a player can be eliminated if the donk would stop betting i espescially hate it when they bet on draws that never happen and someone with a pair could have beaten them
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Riddle me this, if you will:
Should you check it down all the time every time, even if the side pot is worth more than the main pot?
Is eliminating the all-in player always the best outcome?
Do you have an opinion on implied tilt odds?