Learning More Theory Has Made Me Worse

[ThinkIllcallUwitha5]

I learned about pot odds and now call or fold based on them, but I haven't won since, whereas I placed ITM in about half the tournaments when my decisions were just based on playing the best hole cards and folding the rest. Anyone else experience this and have any advice? I'm even trying to go back to the old way but I can't figure out how I did it. I can't see the pot and not calculate it, or not calculate number of outs, but it seems to be hurting my game beyond variance.

 

[ph_il]

Counting your outs/figuring your odds to hit is just one of the many aspects that comes with playing this game. You cant simply just learn and do one thing and expect a smooth ride to the top.

Off of the top of my head, you have to think about: implied odds, hand ranges, player styles, position, game type, how you play, how people have seen you play, etc and so much more.

Learning about pot/hand odds is great because you make more +EV calls and lose less profit. But if that's all you look at, it isn't enough.

 

[hugh blair]

I learned about pot odds and now call or fold based on them, but I haven't won since, whereas I placed ITM in about half the tournaments when my decisions were just based on playing the best hole cards and folding the rest. Anyone else experience this and have any advice? I'm even trying to go back to the old way but I can't figure out how I did it. I can't see the pot and not calculate it, or not calculate number of outs, but it seems to be hurting my game beyond variance.

ohshootmybad is right learn everything he said and more fold strong cards if pot odds in your favour but bubble close and others shorter than you.
Position is very important.
Variance has a way of messing with you no matter how good your odds

 

[ThinkIllcallUwitha5]

You're right ohshootmybad. I think that pot odds aren't enough and I forgot the more influential points. Namely, hand selection and position, which were the first two things I learned and served me well. So, for example, I've been flat calling with marginal hands in the small blind because of huge pot odds, but that goes against the more important factor of position.

Also, I think I've gotten over-tricky. E.g.,Trying to represent top pair when a king or ace hits the flop, which I like to do since I've learned about representing during a bluff instead of just randomly betting to scare off villains. But again, doing so out of position and getting called or reraised by someone who actually has it.

I think a big part of it is having all this knowledge and feeliing like I need to be DOING something with it, whereas I think a lot of poker success is discipline to not do anything the majority of the time (folding).

 

[Poker_Mike]

I learned about pot odds and now call or fold based on them, but I haven't won since, whereas I placed ITM in about half the tournaments when my decisions were just based on playing the best hole cards and folding the rest. Anyone else experience this and have any advice? I'm even trying to go back to the old way but I can't figure out how I did it. I can't see the pot and not calculate it, or not calculate number of outs, but it seems to be hurting my game beyond variance.

So....pot odds are VITAL in cash games if you want to be profitable.

Rec players with plenty of money don't need to pay attention to pot-odds because they have a pay-cheque coming in to replenish their bankroll. And that is fine if they are happy.

Personally I don't subscribe to pot-odds in tournaments. I mean it can be obvious that your opponent is trying to deny you pot-odds and that might be really good information. Maybe he is super-strong, etc.

But, if I think I can win the hand then I will plow-ahead in tournaments. Because to me....tournaments are short-term - while a lifetime of cash game play is longer.

Good luck !

 

[Spaceman]

I dont get it, because you have learned counting pot odds you forgot about starting hands and position?

Pot odds are just an other powerful weapon in your arsenal to help you make better longterm decisions. That doesnt mean you can go on play any two cards from any position because you can count pot odds! As other had already told you, there are a lot of other aspects to also take in consideration to make your decisions. Whats your opponents? If a rock give you nice pot odds you know you can fold, and if a donkey bets everything all in, you know you have to take some risks. Do they understand about ranges? If they dont, well that utg 3-bet bluff is just money being burned.

 

[RocwX]

Would you say you're calling too many hands because the odds told you so? I think that is the most common mistake a player can make right after learning about odds. Every bet seems like a must call, but that's how the other players mean it to be because they know you're getting enough odds to call with your bluff catcher.

You have to master a few more skills to improve your play, odds and equity are only a part of it. If you're not confortable with how you're playing when using these tools, go back to being a solid TAG player, at least while you learn the intricacies of poker math. Whenever I'm not feeling confident about how I'm playing I can reliably go back to my basis with TAG until my situation is stable again.

 

[Mycetism]

Yeah I had that phase too! When I first began I was just going all-in on big hand, It was somehow working fine until I realise that it wasn't a great tactic since I was having bad beats some time and way too much fold on my big hand. So I've started to test the pot and bluff with a huge set back. Somehow someway people we'rent beleive my bluff. The hard part is : making it look real. It has to be plausible. You don't need to win the tournament, you don't need to win the hand, you need to play the best possible way with what you have!

 

[EVA777]

I learned about pot odds and now call or fold based on them, but I haven't won since, whereas I placed ITM in about half the tournaments when my decisions were just based on playing the best hole cards and folding the rest. Anyone else experience this and have any advice? I'm even trying to go back to the old way but I can't figure out how I did it. I can't see the pot and not calculate it, or not calculate number of outs, but it seems to be hurting my game beyond variance.

I have the same story ... The more I study theory, the worse I play. I think it is better not to be distracted and concentrate more on my own experience.

 

[8bod8]

So you got 1 piece of the puzzle,
looks like you'll need a few more.
When you were doing alright b4, small adjustments were probably more usefull tha complete change of strategy based on 1 aspect.

 

[MattRyder]

Having a good grasp of the math is very important. But so are many other things. Computer v computer where math is everything, neither will come out ahead. Person v person where math is only one part of the equation - well that's why we have the wsop.

 

[eberetta1]

Kimg Solomon once said, in much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge, increases sorrow.

I hope you get more joy out of your newly acquired knowledge as time goes by.

 

[bstest]

After I learn new material my play is horrible. Let it sink in and then it may become part of your natural game

 

[rigor mortis]

Pot odds are all very well, but need to be used in conjunction with other factors of the game. Sometimes you simply have to ignore them when you consider your position and playing two/three player pots. Consider you are dealt pocket aces, flop goes down J 2 5 broadway, pot is say $1000, one opponent left bets the pot. Pot odds of 2/1, odds of improving your hand 45/2

 

[VMVarga]

I learned about pot odds and now call or fold based on them, but I haven't won since, whereas I placed ITM in about half the tournaments when my decisions were just based on playing the best hole cards and folding the rest. Anyone else experience this and have any advice? I'm even trying to go back to the old way but I can't figure out how I did it. I can't see the pot and not calculate it, or not calculate number of outs, but it seems to be hurting my game beyond variance.

As many have already said, those pot odds are just one of the many things to consider when playing any given hand. It doesn't mean that you should call just because the odds look good and are tempting you to. Each hand/pot you get into is a new and unique situation and you have to try to gather as much info as possible and make the best decision that you can. It sounds like you were just playing more carefully before, and not calling people's bets when it seemed like you were beat, and now that you see the pot odds as a factor in making that decision, it has caused you make a decision that you would have otherwise not made had you not thought about what pot odds you were getting. My advice would be to forget about pot odds when you get that strong feeling that your hand is not good enough to win at showdown. If it seems like he/she has it, chances are high that he/she does, so just don't even bring pot odds into it at that point. Unless you are drawing a flush or straight and you think the pot odds warrant a call, even though you think he has you at that point.

 

[blueskies]

I learned about pot odds and now call or fold based on them, but I haven't won since, whereas I placed ITM in about half the tournaments when my decisions were just based on playing the best hole cards and folding the rest. Anyone else experience this and have any advice? I'm even trying to go back to the old way but I can't figure out how I did it. I can't see the pot and not calculate it, or not calculate number of outs, but it seems to be hurting my game beyond variance.

Tournament poker is about situation and stack size. And unless you happen to be really deep stacked, the key is your preflop decisions.

Pot odds are better used in cash games.

 

[naunihal03]

I never gets it what will coaching teach you. In my opinion we should know rules how to play and judge our opponents.
coaching doesn't know whats whatg on opposition's mind.

 

[CallmeFloppy]

Any information you can add to the equation helps to make the best decision. Still start off playing strong hands in position. Then start trying to put your opponents on a range based on their actions and tendencies. Once you have done that, then you can start putting pot odd into play more. If I put my opponent on a range of hands and I can beat 70%, I am playing that differently than I would a nit who has me beat with 90% of his range. Let's say I have an king high flush draw. If I am playing the first guy, I might not even need to hit my card to have the best hand, against the second, I may already be drawing dead.

Remember that your opponents might improve with the next card that helps you too. Your 8 outs to a straight draw may only be 4 if one of those cards gives your opponent a better hand. That needs to be considered as well.

 

[SouthparkSith]

Hopefully this helps your situation:


Back when I first started playing Hold-Em I had a similar issue. I was brand new to this game but had been playing Stud, low-ball, 5 card draw and a whole bunch of crazy games you've probably never heard of. For years

I was pretty good in all those games but Everytime I would learn new skills or gain more information it made me appear to play worse than I had and I went though a couple of years where I went to the ATM more often than I sat at my table.

In a nutshell it's all extremely valuable bull crap!

Many are going to disagree but it's the truth. All this information is powerful to have but it can be your worst enemy! Just play your game get out of your own head and apply your new skills when ever but don't change your way of playing for any of it!

Do I use position, ranges, pot and implied odds and six dozen other things sure I do but it takes years to put together correctly and it's put together for everyone differently.

The only time you should even think about pot or implied odds if it's new to you would be. If your in a tournament and on the fence about calling or folding. Then you play with it and calculate your outcome for the next time you're in a similar situation. Hope that helps get you back on track.
Now cash games are a different story! If your new to the odds and play both (tournament and cash) play a couple tournaments and treat the hands you play like cash till you get comfortable with your numbers.

 

[duson]

I think I'm in the same boat as you, the more I learn the more I struggle. For me its because players at the micro stakes play more random/irrational than players at the higher stakes. So using all this extra knowledge sometimes puts me at a disadvantage. I've had to go back to relying on my cards rather than trying to bluff/buy/steal otherwise I lose way too much. Using a pre-flop card chart is really the only thing I still use just because it makes some calls a lot easier when its closer to the money.

 

[korneel]

I have had the same issues.
I just stopped doing the things that didn't work for me.

 

[niphon56]

One cannot play poker like a machine.

Look at your opponents and find out their reactions are more helpful.

 

[ThinkIllcallUwitha5]

Sorry I can't answer everyone yet, but thank you for your ideas and I read all the posts. After reading your advices, I took them to heart and got 5th in a 1200 seat tournament to win more money than I've won online so far combined. (Would have been higher than 5th, too, but I have a leak of bluffing too much and doubled up a low stack who should have gotten blinded out soon.)


Spaceman, to answer you question, it's about prioritizing different things I've learned and figuring out which piece to use when, and once I learned this new thing it went to the top of my stack, when that's not really where it should be prioritized in a full skillset. It turned out that position takes priority over pot odds in the freerolls I've been playing because a lot of times, my odds can be good so far in MP to call, but then a "donk" goes all in with what are probably bad cards, which I would have seen if I had been paying attention to position and played more of later positions than earlier instead of wasting buy-in and call money trying to see a flop OOP.

Important points that helped me:

1. Position is King. It is a bit hard to learn in donkathons because players don't act rationally; they're willing to call all in in any position with sometimes really bad cards. But those moves are not +EV long term, and you should not assume they are a good move even if they win sometimes.

2. I had an incomplete understanding of pot odds. If I have a ~25% chance of getting what I need postflop, I can't just call a with 3:1 bet and assume I'll get to the showdown to see my equity, because usually if my opponent has bet against me before he will again. What I'm trying to say is that my opponents will try to deny me from seeing my showdown equity with overbets. I don't know if I'm using terms correctly, but this was an important advance I made and part of the reason I had trouble when first trying to implement my understanding of pot odds.

3. "Value betting" is more valuable to my success than scaring someone off and avoiding a showdown, even though the latter feels more satisfying, like I'm top monkey and now I get all the bananas. Moving from the emotional satisfaction of winning a scare-fight with someone instead of getting paid off has helped a lot. (I used to be always scared of showdown because many times people had things I didn't even notice, like a flush.)

3. Cash games are a completely different animal and I'm terrible at them. I took some of my winnings to play the lowest limit cash game and lost a buyin twice two days in a row before realizing that I need to learn a lot more before wasting more money on that.

Hope this is clear even though I write a lot. Got a lot of thoughts running around after this.

 

[ThinkIllcallUwitha5]

I dont get it, because you have learned counting pot odds you forgot about starting hands and position?

Pot odds are just an other powerful weapon in your arsenal to help you make better longterm decisions. That doesnt mean you can go on play any two cards from any position because you can count pot odds! As other had already told you, there are a lot of other aspects to also take in consideration to make your decisions. Whats your opponents? If a rock give you nice pot odds you know you can fold, and if a donkey bets everything all in, you know you have to take some risks. Do they understand about ranges? If they dont, well that utg 3-bet bluff is just money being burned.

Tournament poker is about situation and stack size. And unless you happen to be really deep stacked, the key is your preflop decisions.

Pot odds are better used in cash games.

blueskies, I totally agree with you. It was my experience that the psychology and rhythm of the table was a lot more important in the tournaments, and I think that's why I failed so bad at cash games after doing fairly well in a tournament. I need to work on my understanding of pot odds more to do well in cash games, whereas in tournaments having a read on a players tendency and knowing when you can stack him or scare him off gave me just about all the advantage I needed, even without having a strong sense of what his cards might be, I think.

 

[ThinkIllcallUwitha5]

Would you say you're calling too many hands because the odds told you so? I think that is the most common mistake a player can make right after learning about odds. Every bet seems like a must call, but that's how the other players mean it to be because they know you're getting enough odds to call with your bluff catcher.

You have to master a few more skills to improve your play, odds and equity are only a part of it. If you're not confortable with how you're playing when using these tools, go back to being a solid TAG player, at least while you learn the intricacies of poker math. Whenever I'm not feeling confident about how I'm playing I can reliably go back to my basis with TAG until my situation is stable again.

Yes, I was definitely doing that. The problem between me and my understanding of pot odds was that I thought it was a magic calculation that told me the GTO thing to do, and all I had to do was get the number and see if it was higher or lower than my equity. But there were several problems with that. Anyway, it caused me to open my range up a lot because I thought that's what the odds told me to do, and also I felt that I could just fold out if my opponents raised too much. But this caused me to get committed to a lot of bad pots as you can imagine. I tightened my range wayyy back up, played position, and everything was good again.

I want to reinforce for everyone who comes later that the most important thing for a beginner, in my experience, is to learn to play TAG, which means play in position and pretty much only with broadway cards, and never call an all in preflop even from loose players without AA, KK, or maybe AKs.

You can learn all the fancy stuff you see on TV later