I really suck at this game and don't know how to improve

[ilostmysoul]

This is infuriating me a lot.

The thing is, I honestly don't know how to improve at this game anymore.

I think I have a pretty good grasp on the basics. Calculating EV, pot odds, and implied odds on the fly, position and playing a tight and aggressive style overall.

But I can't stop being exploited. I have no clue how to make that jump. This means that I will be sitting for hours on a deep stacked tournament not playing anything because most hands are not even marginally decent. Finished a tournament right now where I played less than 15% of the hands. And anyway, any time I come into hand I have no idea how to play post flop. And I know that. Here's a perfect strategy against me:

If you have position over me, call my raise pre, check/call (or bet) me flop, pot bet me on the turn or river and you will win the hand. If I don't fold turn or river then you can assume I have top pair and fold everything else below top pair. Bet anything above top pair and I will call a reasonable bet.
If I have position over you, simply bet when I check and you will win the hand. If I call, bet again. If I call, I have at least top pair.

This is it. This is everything an opponent has to do to beat me. And I have no idea how to break out of it. I know the obvious answer will be "Read books/study the game" but I have. I have read over 10 poker books, from the classics to the most modern ones. Harrington, Negreanu, Ivey, Sklansky. I've clocked over 30 hours on poker online schools, Twitch, and Youtube watching tournaments. If anything studying so much made it even worse because I'm way more results-focused now and it's much more frustrating to play the game, it's not even fun anymore, it's like I'm studying for a boring school subject.

Still have no idea how to play post flot and how to range opponents. If I try to divert from my usual strategy I will get destroyed. For example, I've been trying to implement Daniel Negreanu's small ball strategy once in a while. And got destroyed doing it. All my opponents had to do was call my preflop raise and raise me on the flop. And if I folded they would win, if I called they knew I had a good hand and gave up. In every tournament I tried it, I wasn't able to pick out the blinds/antes once and was forced to go back to my strategy of being very tight.

And if I decide "Okay I'm going to open up my standards and call to the end with less than top pair if I think it's good". Okay. Check out this hand. I have 88, open to 2.5x, BB calls. Flop K73 with 2-suited, BB bets 1/3. I figure my 8s probably still good, call. Turn K opening, BB bets 1/3. Call. River 2. BB bets 1/2. No draws completed.

What do I do here? If I assume BB has the K then I'm going back to my regular way of thinking where I will just call down with top pair or better and give up everything else to aggression. Also I thought he could have a busted draw and was trying to bust me out. So in this case I called and he did have the K.

Another example. I try to steal from the BU with 86s, BB calls. Flop comes AJ6 rainbow. I c-bet because I think it makes sense here. He calls. Turn 2 goes check-check. River is a Q. BB bets. This is another tricky spot for me. His bet makes no sense. I can't narrow down a range where that bet would make sense. In my mind, an A would raise flop or bet turn. A J or a Q would check because I had represented the A. The only hand that makes sense for me here is QJ, I ended up folding but this felt like another situation where I was being exploited.

These are the kinds of spots that get me. Pretty much everything that involves post flop play where I don't catch a good flop absolutely ruins my game. I'm either forced to fold or if I go to the end I always face up against better hands. And I have absolutely no idea how to improve

 

[eetenor]

This is infuriating me a lot.

The thing is, I honestly don't know how to improve at this game anymore.

I think I have a pretty good grasp on the basics. Calculating EV, pot odds, and implied odds on the fly, position and playing a tight and aggressive style overall.

But I can't stop being exploited. I have no clue how to make that jump. This means that I will be sitting for hours on a deep stacked tournament not playing anything because most hands are not even marginally decent. Finished a tournament right now where I played less than 15% of the hands. And anyway, any time I come into hand I have no idea how to play post flop. And I know that. Here's a perfect strategy against me:

If you have position over me, call my raise pre, check/call (or bet) me flop, pot bet me on the turn or river and you will win the hand. If I don't fold turn or river then you can assume I have top pair and fold everything else below top pair. Bet anything above top pair and I will call a reasonable bet.
If I have position over you, simply bet when I check and you will win the hand. If I call, bet again. If I call, I have at least top pair.

This is it. This is everything an opponent has to do to beat me. And I have no idea how to break out of it. I know the obvious answer will be "Read books/study the game" but I have. I have read over 10 poker books, from the classics to the most modern ones. Harrington, Negreanu, Ivey, Sklansky. I've clocked over 30 hours on poker online schools, Twitch, and Youtube watching tournaments. If anything studying so much made it even worse because I'm way more results-focused now and it's much more frustrating to play the game, it's not even fun anymore, it's like I'm studying for a boring school subject.

Still have no idea how to play post flot and how to range opponents. If I try to divert from my usual strategy I will get destroyed. For example, I've been trying to implement Daniel Negreanu's small ball strategy once in a while. And got destroyed doing it. All my opponents had to do was call my preflop raise and raise me on the flop. And if I folded they would win, if I called they knew I had a good hand and gave up. In every tournament I tried it, I wasn't able to pick out the blinds/antes once and was forced to go back to my strategy of being very tight.

And if I decide "Okay I'm going to open up my standards and call to the end with less than top pair if I think it's good". Okay. Check out this hand. I have 88, open to 2.5x, BB calls. Flop K73 with 2-suited, BB bets 1/3. I figure my 8s probably still good, call. Turn K opening, BB bets 1/3. Call. River 2. BB bets 1/2. No draws completed.

What do I do here? If I assume BB has the K then I'm going back to my regular way of thinking where I will just call down with top pair or better and give up everything else to aggression. Also I thought he could have a busted draw and was trying to bust me out. So in this case I called and he did have the K.

Another example. I try to steal from the BU with 86s, BB calls. Flop comes AJ6 rainbow. I c-bet because I think it makes sense here. He calls. Turn 2 goes check-check. River is a Q. BB bets. This is another tricky spot for me. His bet makes no sense. I can't narrow down a range where that bet would make sense. In my mind, an A would raise flop or bet turn. A J or a Q would check because I had represented the A. The only hand that makes sense for me here is QJ, I ended up folding but this felt like another situation where I was being exploited.

These are the kinds of spots that get me. Pretty much everything that involves post flop play where I don't catch a good flop absolutely ruins my game. I'm either forced to fold or if I go to the end I always face up against better hands. And I have absolutely no idea how to improve

Thank U 4 posting

It is not uncommon to feel as you are feeling. It has been said NL takes very little time to learn but a lifetime to master. That is what you are discovering now.

The good news is you have revealed what your skill deficits are in the above post.

So your first step to getting better at this game is stop thinking about your hand and how you should play it and start asking why would my V take this action?

In the above example K73 flop
Why would my V lead a hand I am beating for 1/3 pot on the flop?
Why would they bet 1/3 pot again on the turn?
Why would they think They should bluff the river when I called twice?

What do V have the greatest % of the time in my player pool (this is key) not how players at high levels play how do my V play?

As we play we take notes then review those notes.

You should already have notes that tell you that 88 was no good on the river in the above spot X% of the time. At lower stakes that X= 95%

So an easy way to get better is to start taking notes on your player pool and use those trends as a guide to what to do

Hope this helps

 

[James24543]

Just keep playing, getting tips on your game, and studying and you will get better.

 

[ilostmysoul]

Thank U 4 posting

It is not uncommon to feel as you are feeling. It has been said NL takes very little time to learn but a lifetime to master. That is what you are discovering now.

The good news is you have revealed what your skill deficits are in the above post.

So your first step to getting better at this game is stop thinking about your hand and how you should play it and start asking why would my V take this action?

In the above example K73 flop
Why would my V lead a hand I am beating for 1/3 pot on the flop?
Why would they bet 1/3 pot again on the turn?
Why would they think They should bluff the river when I called twice?

What do V have the greatest % of the time in my player pool (this is key) not how players at high levels play how do my V play?

As we play we take notes then review those notes.

You should already have notes that tell you that 88 was no good on the river in the above spot X% of the time. At lower stakes that X= 95%

So an easy way to get better is to start taking notes on your player pool and use those trends as a guide to what to do

Hope this helps

Thanks a lot!

I do have a Word file where I have my most common errors. Hands where I shoved while being <30% favorite, I just write a short description of the hand and what I think I did wrong. By far most of those include calling with a medium pair. Do you think it's a good idea to just forget medium pairs unless I have a very clear read on an opponent player that he gives a lot of action with sub-MPs? I think that's a good strategy but mid-game I always forget to pause and think through things.


When I made the original post I had just lost 3 tournaments in a roll. 2 of those were freerolls so who cares. I did get KK beaten two hands in a row (in the same tournament and table!!! KK, manage to shove, guys gets an ace and beats me, KK again, manage to shove, same freaking guy gets a straight) so I was pretty mad. The 3rd tournament was a 5€ buy-in. I had been stacking those, I had 8 tickets I won on freeroll satellites. And that one I just played badly. By that I mean: very rarely taking a stab at pots (and I don't think my range is that nitty, it's 20-25% and it includes suited connectors and one-gapers, I don't know what else to add to it reasonably) and when I did take a stab I was being forced out by 3-bets pre, or floaters post who weren't letting me go to showdown. That tournament did have 1000+ people so maybe that factors in. Slowly lost my stack to the point I had to shove and lost.

This is why poker is so frustrating for me. 15-20 minutes waiting for a hand to be forced out of it. That is why I think my post-flop play sucks, it's way too straight forward and exploitable.

Out of tilt I ended up joining another 5€ tournament. Just under 200 people. Cashed in at 12th. I'm still kind of frustrated because I called a shove from 33 with 99 and he caught his set on the Turn. We were both deep stacked. That hand was one of those where you either go back down to 10BBs or you make the final table. I didn't enjoy it very much :/ cashed out 20€ which isn't bad, but it isn't that good either. I guess I'm being too results-oriented though, it was a 3x ROI. I just wanted a bit more because I need a new watch.

But yea. Post Flop. I need to improve that a lot. I need to make a basic strategy like: okay, you have a medium pair, you don't get involved in action past a second bet on the Turn or whatever. I need some sort of a standard play. Draws are easy, I have a very easy time playing draws because like I said I know how to calculate odds, what to factor in (ie. does he have enough to pay me off? Do I have reverse implied odds, etc.), but weak to marginal made hands and evaluating their strength are a nightmare. If anyone has any videos or articles that could lead me here I'd appreciate it a lot!

Thanks everyone for replying!!!


EDIT: I'm editing this as a question that has nothing to do with the rest of the thread. What do you guys think of waiting for those "Weekly Tournaments" with bigger cash outs. I mean, like I said I was playing a daily freeroll satellite, ended up winning 10+, and stacked those 5€ tickets they give out as prizes. My idea was to play on weekly tournaments who have $10.000 guaranteed (as opposed to daily tournaments which have $7.500 or those more regular ones which have $1.000 - $2.500). My idea was that the weekly ones would give me a better chance to get more money. But now I'm rethinking that. Mostly the player base is 10x as large, even on the daily ones compared to the $1.000 ones. The only thing that does seem better is the prize distribution. The prizes themselves don't seem to change much, except for the first few. And mentally I think that "saving up" the game weekly does create a lot of uneeded stress. Whereas the $1000 ones are just as good, and although you need to get deeper into the prizes to have a good cash out, your chances of getting there seem better.

 

[Fjarri]

It sounds like you're playing ABC poker and getting frustrated at the skill border where it doesn't give you an edge on the population anymore.

First off, strong fundamentals ABC poker is a good starting point for an extended strategy. Most of the profit you make comes from your value hands, not fancy bluffs. With that in mind, the next step is for almost all people is ranges.

Ranges make a hand what it is. Say you're 50 BB deep, you raised from middle position and the cut-off calls. The flop comes [5h 8s Jh]. Do you continuation bet?"But wait," you might say, "what cards do I have?"

Bzz! Wrong. That is almost always never the deciding a factor on flops like this.

The more important question is, did your range hit the flop more than your opponent's did? As a middle position raiser, your range is heavy with broadways and aces. Your opponent's range at this point is much more likely to have hit the flop. Your standard line in this case is to check with most of your hands and your opponent's standard line is going to be to bet with almost all of his hands.

So you check many hands and he bets many hands. That means your check-raise range can be widened to even something like QsTs with the gutshot and backdoor flush draws. And now we're starting to play some poker. And now we're starting to become less exploitable.

Keep in mind that what I mean by "standard line" should almost never be used 100% of the time. You say you've read Harrington, so you probably came across the concept of just looking at the second hand of your watch and deciding based on that. If you want to bet 25% of the time, just bet when the second hand is between 0 and 15, check the rest.

I found that hand reviews with solvers (e.g. PioSolver) and commentated plays (e.g. bencb from RaiseYourEdge on Youtube) helped me with this concept.

Hope this helps. Good luck at the tables!

 

[eetenor]

Thanks a lot!

I do have a Word file where I have my most common errors. Hands where I shoved while being <30% favorite, I just write a short description of the hand and what I think I did wrong. By far most of those include calling with a medium pair. Do you think it's a good idea to just forget medium pairs unless I have a very clear read on an opponent player that he gives a lot of action with sub-MPs? I think that's a good strategy but mid-game I always forget to pause and think through things.


When I made the original post I had just lost 3 tournaments in a roll. 2 of those were freerolls so who cares. I did get KK beaten two hands in a row (in the same tournament and table!!! KK, manage to shove, guys gets an ace and beats me, KK again, manage to shove, same freaking guy gets a straight) so I was pretty mad. The 3rd tournament was a 5€ buy-in. I had been stacking those, I had 8 tickets I won on freeroll satellites. And that one I just played badly. By that I mean: very rarely taking a stab at pots (and I don't think my range is that nitty, it's 20-25% and it includes suited connectors and one-gapers, I don't know what else to add to it reasonably) and when I did take a stab I was being forced out by 3-bets pre, or floaters post who weren't letting me go to showdown. That tournament did have 1000+ people so maybe that factors in. Slowly lost my stack to the point I had to shove and lost.

This is why poker is so frustrating for me. 15-20 minutes waiting for a hand to be forced out of it. That is why I think my post-flop play sucks, it's way too straight forward and exploitable.

Out of tilt I ended up joining another 5€ tournament. Just under 200 people. Cashed in at 12th. I'm still kind of frustrated because I called a shove from 33 with 99 and he caught his set on the Turn. We were both deep stacked. That hand was one of those where you either go back down to 10BBs or you make the final table. I didn't enjoy it very much :/ cashed out 20€ which isn't bad, but it isn't that good either. I guess I'm being too results-oriented though, it was a 3x ROI. I just wanted a bit more because I need a new watch.

But yea. Post Flop. I need to improve that a lot. I need to make a basic strategy like: okay, you have a medium pair, you don't get involved in action past a second bet on the Turn or whatever. I need some sort of a standard play. Draws are easy, I have a very easy time playing draws because like I said I know how to calculate odds, what to factor in (ie. does he have enough to pay me off? Do I have reverse implied odds, etc.), but weak to marginal mooade hands and evaluating their strength are a nightmare. If anyone has any videos or articles that could lead me here I'd appreciate it a lot!

Thanks everyone for replying!!!


EDIT: I'm editing this as a question that has nothing to do with the rest of the thread. What do you guys think of waiting for those "Weekly Tournaments" with bigger cash outs. I mean, like I said I was playing a daily freeroll satellite, ended up winning 10+, and stacked those 5€ tickets they give out as prizes. My idea was to play on weekly tournaments who have $10.000 guaranteed (as opposed to daily tournaments which have $7.500 or those more regular ones which have $1.000 - $2.500). My idea was that the weekly ones would give me a better chance to get more money. But now I'm rethinking that. Mostly the player base is 10x as large, even on the daily ones compared to the $1.000 ones. The only thing that does seem better is the prize distribution. The prizes themselves don't seem to change much, except for the first few. And mentally I think that "saving up" the game weekly does create a lot of uneeded stress. Whereas the $1000 ones are just as good, and although you need to get deeper into the prizes to have a good cash out, your chances of getting there seem better.

Thank U 4 responding

I have several points to make and will do so Simply and precisely

1: first paragraph “I forget to pause and think“ You must solve this to play well post flop. You already have skills you must focus and think on every street in order to use them!

2: “ I just lost 3 tournaments in a row”. If you are focusing on that small a number of loses you will drive yourself crazy. A good pro cashes 1 in 6 and knows that 20-30 loses is not uncommon. Try to get into that mindset

3: KK gets cracked twice and your mental game breaks. You need to fix tilt right now! If you do, it will help your results significantly. Author Jared Tendler get his books The Mental Game of Poker Vol 1-2

4: Changing tournament structures?
Trying to find spots where your current skills will help you be a winner is not a good plan. Improving the above skill set will be much more productive than trying to just get lucky with card distribution.

Keep playing in freerolls and do not worry about winning but fix your in game leaks then start crushing tournaments

Hope this helps

 

[jeanpierre1279]

Thanks a lot!

I do have a Word file where I have my most common errors. Hands where I shoved while being <30% favorite, I just write a short description of the hand and what I think I did wrong. By far most of those include calling with a medium pair. Do you think it's a good idea to just forget medium pairs unless I have a very clear read on an opponent player that he gives a lot of action with sub-MPs? I think that's a good strategy but mid-game I always forget to pause and think through things.


When I made the original post I had just lost 3 tournaments in a roll. 2 of those were freerolls so who cares. I did get KK beaten two hands in a row (in the same tournament and table!!! KK, manage to shove, guys gets an ace and beats me, KK again, manage to shove, same freaking guy gets a straight) so I was pretty mad. The 3rd tournament was a 5€ buy-in. I had been stacking those, I had 8 tickets I won on freeroll satellites. And that one I just played badly. By that I mean: very rarely taking a stab at pots (and I don't think my range is that nitty, it's 20-25% and it includes suited connectors and one-gapers, I don't know what else to add to it reasonably) and when I did take a stab I was being forced out by 3-bets pre, or floaters post who weren't letting me go to showdown. That tournament did have 1000+ people so maybe that factors in. Slowly lost my stack to the point I had to shove and lost.

This is why poker is so frustrating for me. 15-20 minutes waiting for a hand to be forced out of it. That is why I think my post-flop play sucks, it's way too straight forward and exploitable.

Out of tilt I ended up joining another 5€ tournament. Just under 200 people. Cashed in at 12th. I'm still kind of frustrated because I called a shove from 33 with 99 and he caught his set on the Turn. We were both deep stacked. That hand was one of those where you either go back down to 10BBs or you make the final table. I didn't enjoy it very much :/ cashed out 20€ which isn't bad, but it isn't that good either. I guess I'm being too results-oriented though, it was a 3x ROI. I just wanted a bit more because I need a new watch.

But yea. Post Flop. I need to improve that a lot. I need to make a basic strategy like: okay, you have a medium pair, you don't get involved in action past a second bet on the Turn or whatever. I need some sort of a standard play. Draws are easy, I have a very easy time playing draws because like I said I know how to calculate odds, what to factor in (ie. does he have enough to pay me off? Do I have reverse implied odds, etc.), but weak to marginal made hands and evaluating their strength are a nightmare. If anyone has any videos or articles that could lead me here I'd appreciate it a lot!

Thanks everyone for replying!!!


EDIT: I'm editing this as a question that has nothing to do with the rest of the thread. What do you guys think of waiting for those "Weekly Tournaments" with bigger cash outs. I mean, like I said I was playing a daily freeroll satellite, ended up winning 10+, and stacked those 5€ tickets they give out as prizes. My idea was to play on weekly tournaments who have $10.000 guaranteed (as opposed to daily tournaments which have $7.500 or those more regular ones which have $1.000 - $2.500). My idea was that the weekly ones would give me a better chance to get more money. But now I'm rethinking that. Mostly the player base is 10x as large, even on the daily ones compared to the $1.000 ones. The only thing that does seem better is the prize distribution. The prizes themselves don't seem to change much, except for the first few. And mentally I think that "saving up" the game weekly does create a lot of uneeded stress. Whereas the $1000 ones are just as good, and although you need to get deeper into the prizes to have a good cash out, your chances of getting there seem better.

I had the same doubts about waiting for bigger tournaments but I tell you that only play them if you won tickets for them or if they are freerolls. Do not pay for them !, because your frustration will be much greater if you lose, because they will be more hours stopped (and it is like that) and losing is normal always.

Play these tickets in championships that are worth less money that will give less people and players more loosers so that you can clearly identify errors.

When you play 5 real and big tournaments you already have regular players who are already used to the losses and can also rebuy and add on as many times as necessary to alleviate the losses, I don't know if this is your case.

Forget in your game what hands you have and look at what position, stack and that everyone already knows that you will represent strong hands so spend more chips pre-flop and a lot if the board hits or can beat.

And of course, vary with marginal hands so that the opponent thinks you have AK but in fact he has his 88 he will only pay you if the board comes from Q down and if you pay with K on the board as was the case is because he actually have this card.