How do you guys deal with adapting your strategy to super wide calling ranges?

I

ilostmysoul

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Hey guys and thanks in advance for answering! I will try to make this as less vague as possible.

I'm a NL2 break-even player, meaning I can play a session of 4 hours and be back where I started more often than not.

And one thing I got used to NL2 is to really widen my betting ranges. I will be betting 3 streets with K8 in Q8246 or whatever and still will get calls from A-high, 2X, 8s with a lower kicker, etc.

How do you adapt to this in terms of your overall strategy? This really screws up my game overall. I mean I will look at someone posting hands like the above on the hand review part of the forum and most people will ask "Well if you bet there, what are you expecting him to call with?". I'm always at a loss here. I expect them to call with anything. I expect everyone to be calling any bet with A-high at this point.

So take a hand I posted over there a few days ago. A6s opened from BU, BB called, flop 77A, I check/shoved and lost a tournament 1 place away from finishing ITM. This was a 55€ tournament so there were no fish here apart from those who won the ticket by pure luck, me included. Most people on that thread said "Well what are you expecting him to call with, you are only folding all his bluffs". Well... not really. I'm totally expecting him to call with 22+ and K-high. So I'm going to put on this range: 22 - QQ, A2 - AQ, KQ, KJ. I'm now 67% ahead of his calling range. I can remove KQ and KJ and I'm still ahead of his calling range 60% of the time. He turned out to have AK which is a hand I would never consider because he didn't raise it pre.

I don't know if you are getting what I mean but I really don't know how to express it any better. How do I get out of this mindset and general strategy of thinking villains will call with anything? Because it really ruins me up. I find myself in these tournaments calling any paired board with any medium pair because I'm so used to villains showing up with A-high or the smallest pair on the board after 3 bullets. And I struggle when people ask "What are you expecting him to call with" on hand reviews because I quite literally expect them be able to call with anything. And therefore I'm calling with any medium pair + and getting myself on a lot of losing positions.

This is a huge leak in my game but I'm not sure how to fix it.
 
JBGoode

JBGoode

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Hey guys and thanks in advance for answering! I will try to make this as less vague as possible.

I'm a NL2 break-even player, meaning I can play a session of 4 hours and be back where I started more often than not.

And one thing I got used to NL2 is to really widen my betting ranges. I will be betting 3 streets with K8 in Q8246 or whatever and still will get calls from A-high, 2X, 8s with a lower kicker, etc.

How do you adapt to this in terms of your overall strategy? This really screws up my game overall. I mean I will look at someone posting hands like the above on the hand review part of the forum and most people will ask "Well if you bet there, what are you expecting him to call with?". I'm always at a loss here. I expect them to call with anything. I expect everyone to be calling any bet with A-high at this point.

So take a hand I posted over there a few days ago. A6s opened from BU, BB called, flop 77A, I check/shoved and lost a tournament 1 place away from finishing ITM. This was a 55€ tournament so there were no fish here apart from those who won the ticket by pure luck, me included. Most people on that thread said "Well what are you expecting him to call with, you are only folding all his bluffs". Well... not really. I'm totally expecting him to call with 22+ and K-high. So I'm going to put on this range: 22 - QQ, A2 - AQ, KQ, KJ. I'm now 67% ahead of his calling range. I can remove KQ and KJ and I'm still ahead of his calling range 60% of the time. He turned out to have AK which is a hand I would never consider because he didn't raise it pre.

I don't know if you are getting what I mean but I really don't know how to express it any better. How do I get out of this mindset and general strategy of thinking villains will call with anything? Because it really ruins me up. I find myself in these tournaments calling any paired board with any medium pair because I'm so used to villains showing up with A-high or the smallest pair on the board after 3 bullets. And I struggle when people ask "What are you expecting him to call with" on hand reviews because I quite literally expect them be able to call with anything. And therefore I'm calling with any medium pair + and getting myself on a lot of losing positions.

This is a huge leak in my game but I'm not sure how to fix it.
I'm actually putting together curriculum that helps cover adapting to player types.

When it comes to passive, heavy flatting style game you get at the freeroll/super micro levels. I've noticed the most success by sticking to your standard unexsploitable open ranges. While tighting up your 3Bet, and flatting ranges....

Reason is, these types of players like to play anything, they base all thier actions on spontaneous emotion. They dont think about future streets, and they dont think on terms of Range vs. Range. All they think about is what they have in comparision to what could come. Even if what could come is only a 2 outer. In thier mind, thier middle pair, or A high is good to the river....

So if you have a player that is gonna a limp 80% of thier range. Means if your opening an unexsploitable range you are always gonna be ahead. In turn if that same player limps 80% of thier range, then, let's say, they actually open 1 out of every 20 hands. Chances are, they are limping in with almost everything besides what a thinking player would consider a 3Bet range. So if thier open range is our 3Bet range we could be pretty tight here. Only give them action with the top of our 3Bet range/just outside of our 4Bet range. And 4Betting playing for stacks with the top of our 4Bet range....

As for limping along I'm limping along on the BTN and the blinds with my entire middling holdings. While opening it up on the BTN, and SB with the bottom and the top of my range for balance. If you do this vil never knows if your strong or weak when you contest thier limp, and when you flat are almost always ahead, with Position, ready to CBet for Value....

I can elaborate in more detail privately, just would like to go over more streets then focusing on preflop game....

Now post flop you gonna make sure you have your soild fundamentals rules. When to Cbet, when not too. Bet sizing to tell your story. Ect. Something else that would take too much time to exsplain indavidually. Message me for more details....

To keep it general, focus on betting for Value. probably the #1 fundamental rule at the freeroll/super micros is DONT bluff THE FISH! now that doesnt mean to not deny equity, or take advatage of fold equity. Cause you will get vils at this level to call you down with A high, and draws the same as they will call you down with top pair. So if you know your post flop fundamental rules. You can avoid taking yourself to value town by a calling station....

Also, when these players start applying back pressure, or actually bet out. 9 out of 10 times they have it. Top pair is not good enough. You need to be on a soild draw, or at least have 2 pair to continue....

In conclution, you wont stack these types of players very often. You gotta take them out slowly, and do everything you can not to give back chips. The reason people have such a problem with these types of vils is because they believe they can beat them quickly. That's not the case. You should be able to pull consistent gains, but nothing massive at one time. Cause you can spend 45 mins slowly eating away, and the next thing you know they wake up with a hand. As the Hero, that has been taking thier money for the better part of an hour, we see that as them taking a stand, and maybe even tilting off to us. Could that be the case? Maybe.... but the majority of the time they actually woke up with it. We spew off with our top pair, shit kicker. Now we just give back everything it took us 45 to get. Now who's on tilt?

Like I said, if you want more detailed information send me a message. We will talk.
 
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maxi_j

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And one thing I got used to NL2 is to really widen my betting ranges. I will be betting 3 streets with K8 in Q8246 or whatever and still will get calls from A-high, 2X, 8s with a lower kicker, etc.
Lets say board Qh8c2s 4d 6c

1)Very rarale you will get call preflop from oponent who has Q8.
2)Even if you expect calng 3 stret from 2X (only 4 combos A2s) you will win 27% times because he will win with:
8d8h,8d8s,8h8s,6d6h,6d6s,6h6s,4h4s,4h4c,4s4c,2d2h,2d2c,2h2c,AdQd,AsQs,AcQc,KdQd,KsQs,KcQc,QdJd,QsJs,QcJc,QdTd,QsTs,QcTc,Qd9d,Qs9s,Qc9c,AdQs,AdQc,AhQd,AhQs,AhQc,AsQd,AsQc,AcQd,AcQs,KdQs,KdQc,KhQd,KhQs,KhQc,KsQd,KsQc,KcQd,KcQs,QdJh,QdJs,QdJc,QsJd,QsJh,QsJc,QcJd,QcJh,QcJs,QdTh,QdTs,QdTc,QsTd,QsTh,QsTc,QcTd,QcTh,QcTs
He will lose with:
TT-99, 77, 55, 33, Ad6d, Ah6h, As6s, Ah4h, As4s, Ac4c, Ad2d, Ah2h, Ac2c

Its approximation but proportion is very obvious.
 
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maxi_j

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1)+ In oponents caling range you will find 89s 87s so you beat 6 combos more.
 
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Pablo22

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I think players are adapting their play based upon your wide range.
 
AntA_KO_v

AntA_KO_v

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to my opinion people on nl2 not thinking about ranges and % =) they just having fun mostly especially in rush hours
 
oneybiggs

oneybiggs

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Shuffle slower ,deal faster ;) no worries.:rock:
 
oneybiggs

oneybiggs

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Shuffle slower ,deal faster ;) no worries.:rock:
Not careful enough with A-rag (but they were suited) when deep or near the bubble i feel.
But you talking NL2 then go onto the bubble of a tourney ?? anyway.
In general though to answer your question a little from my perspective(never studied)
RATIO.....If u want to open your range right up ,i would ask myself for example how many times are any two going to win,maybe 1 in 6 ...1 in 7 sometimes ridiculous cards can win two or three hands in a row,with lots of callers as odds would have it :)throw in one extra for online scepticism we have a 1 in 8 ratio.So if i jumped onto a NL2 table with $40 i would be base betting (opening ,calling raising) around $5 or 1 8th of my starting stack being fully prepared to fold at the flop without thinking twice,knowing ive got to be really unlucky to go 5,6 or 7 hands without hitting something reasonably solid or solid enough for another 8th ($5) also knowing or at least hoping to double or triple whatever stack i have left when it does hit.This seems to work well early stages of tourneys if i can keep it strict for those first few levels so i dont see why its shouldnt work on cash tables.Also it keeps you unpredictable if you stick to the same or similar bet sizing no matter what cards u hold.So if that makes any sense to you at all,give it a whirl,let me know if i should have been rich ages ago haha i have bad self discipline,its probably my biggest leak after sharing my early game with you all....Happy New Year CardsChatters,thats basically my whole early game on a plate for ya,s,give or take a fraction.Dribble or not dribble,that be the question. :)
 
azforlife

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I think the gist of this comes to choosing to play exploitative vs Optimal poker, in laymans terms
If you're of the former thinking style like me :) then guess a range preflop, & play accordingly EXPLOITING the loose caller & deviating your bet size or continuation tendencies accordingly. Easier said than done but it is A GUESSING GAME!
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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So take a hand I posted over there a few days ago. A6s opened from BU, BB called, flop 77A, I check/shoved and lost a tournament 1 place away from finishing ITM. This was a 55€ tournament so there were no fish here apart from those who won the ticket by pure luck, me included. Most people on that thread said "Well what are you expecting him to call with, you are only folding all his bluffs". Well... not really. I'm totally expecting him to call with 22+ and K-high. So I'm going to put on this range: 22 - QQ, A2 - AQ, KQ, KJ. I'm now 67% ahead of his calling range. I can remove KQ and KJ and I'm still ahead of his calling range 60% of the time. He turned out to have AK which is a hand I would never consider because he didn't raise it pre.


Really interesting question. Here are a few comments on the quoted part of the post in particular:

1. There will definitely be recreational opponents in most $55 tournies! My guess is that your opponent was one given that he open-limped AK pre. (Not a guarantee of course, but not many regulars will do this outside of the SB.)

2. There is ICM here -- Because it's the bubble and your opponent covers you, you need higher equity than normal to get it in here. Depending on the stacks and pot size, 60% might not be enough.

3. Ignoring the bubble for a moment, shoving could be very profitable and yet calling is much better. Suppose Villain's range is very wide. If you shove on him, even if he's very loose, there's some chance he'll fold his air. Calling gives him the chance to continue betting it.

4. Re-stating the last point. Shoving gets you action when he has the best hand, and may or may not get called by his air. Calling loses the same or less when he has the best hand, and is more likely to get action from his air. Considering you also don't have to worry about protecting your hand on such a dry flop, you want to call here.​
 
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fundiver199

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Really interesting question. Here are a few comments on the quoted part of the post in particular:

1. There will definitely be recreational opponents in most $55 tournies! My guess is that your opponent was one given that he open-limped AK pre. (Not a guarantee of course, but not many regulars will do this outside of the SB.)

2. There is ICM here -- Because it's the bubble and your opponent covers you, you need higher equity than normal to get it in here. Depending on the stacks and pot size, 60% might not be enough.

3. Ignoring the bubble for a moment, shoving could be very profitable and yet calling is much better. Suppose Villain's range is very wide. If you shove on him, even if he's very loose, there's some chance he'll fold his air. Calling gives him the chance to continue betting it.

4. Re-stating the last point. Shoving gets you action when he has the best hand, and may or may not get called by his air. Calling loses the same or less when he has the best hand, and is more likely to get action from his air. Considering you also don't have to worry about protecting your hand on such a dry flop, you want to call here.​

As I understand OP, he opened A6s from BTN, and then Villain defended his BB his AK. Not 3-betting AK is obviously a deviation, but right on the bubble there is some merit in trying to keep all pots small and not go broke. Personally I would probably still 3-bet AK, but I would not call a flat call fishy on the bubble.

There is something wrong with the hand history however, since Hero can not check-jam, when he is in position. Maybe Hero was facing a lead (donk bet) from Villain and then jammed over that lead. This I would definitely not do, since as you say, A6 is very much a bluffcatcher on A77, and its difficult to imagine, that someone would lead AND then call a jam without at least AX on A77, when its right on the bubble of an MTT.

We also dont know, how large the effective stack was, and maybe A6s should rather have been open jammed. In which case AK would obviusly have called, and Hero would still have gotten stacked. Simply folding A6s even on BTN is also not totally unreasonable, if it was right on the bubble, and a min-cash mattered to Hero.
 
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