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J

Joselmb31

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Pair of js in SB with 25 blinds. UTG goes all in preflop with 28 blinds, CO goes all in with 46 blinds, I fold. That's wrong?
 
CowboyStomp

CowboyStomp

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Need more info... Did you have reads on these players? Did you have the stacks covered? Cash or MTT? It's not always right or wrong to fold JJ but with two all ins in front of you. I have folded JJ before also in that spot.
 
gardin555

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Pair of js in SB with 25 blinds. UTG goes all in preflop with 28 blinds, CO goes all in with 46 blinds, I fold. That's wrong?

Hello Joselmb31

You must give more information about the environment of the hand in order to give you a more accurate answer.
I think it depend of a lot of variables to take in account to call or fold there.
For example: this is a tournament game or a cash game? If this is a tournament game, then which stage of the toruney is playing the hand? this is on the first stage, bubble, FT?
What reading do you have about of your opponents, what kind of players they are?, callingstation ?(wide range) or are they nit, (only go with broadways or high pairs)?
I think jacks pair is a good hand to play, and sometimes enought to call one allin preflop, but with two players shoving before you, we are under three possible stronger hands, like QQ/KK/AA
So may the best move there could be fold, but to take a decision will depend of a lot of variables to take in account first at all.

You can post your hand to be analyzed at:
Tournament Hand Analysis Thread
https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/

You also can post your hand with the tool:
Poker Hand Converter & Replayer
https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

Cheers! :)
 
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Joselmb31

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It was a freeroll of 4000 or so people, the aggressor going all in pre-flop every so often. There were 16 players left to enter the bubble. But the one who made me doubt was the other villain who surpasses me because he played his hands very firmly. Obviously he lost to the one who surpassed me because he had QQ. But more than anything I wanted to know without even losing, I had to have paid for some reason.
 
Phoenix Wright

Phoenix Wright

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As mentioned by others, the more details then the better. Obviously, my decision to fold might be "correct" or a bad mistake based on simple details that mean a lot. For example, are the other two players both maniac players who play any two cards, or are they TAG regs?

With JJ in SB with 25bbs I still believe we have a clear fold in most cases against solid players. Why? Aren't we lower in chips and holding a great preflop hand? Yes we are, but we might still want to fold!

Here is some of the reasoning to fold:

-First and foremost, even "premium" hands like JJ perform worse in multi-way pots and especially so if they are All-in because we can't isolate or bluff because they are already in.

-Another reason to fold is because both players cover our stack, so this isn't really ideal for us in a multi-way pot. Irony with poker is that if they were to fold instead then we can shove All-in with JJ and the bb might be best to fold and give us the pot even if they covered us! Being the first to go All-in changes things a little in the decision making process.

-Biggest reason to fold: UTG shoved All-in! Without details like table image or tells, we should be giving UTG credit because their range is likely a tight one from such an early position at the table. I might reason the CO or HJ making skeptical moves because they are in late position, but UTG has to "get through" everyone and so an All-in shove from UTG should theoretically be a stronger range of hands than from later positions.

* Finally, here is my guess on the action here...

UTG shoves All-in. Without information on how that player has been playing (specifically are they a maniac or not?), I think a shove with 28 bbs is a bit much, but might be justifiable (if lots of players cover them so they don't have as much to lose or the table is playing fairly tight so they think they can take the pot uncontested etc.).

A logical player in the CO might realize this and suspect that the UTG player was getting a bit out of line with an All-in (perhaps All-in with 10bbs or 15bbs etc. is less suspicious, but 28 bbs shove might be "making moves" but then again, they might also have a "real hand" like AA). In this event, the CO might reasonably be going All-in over UTG to isolate. This basically means they are doing this to discourage others from entering the pot so that way they can play the UTG player heads-up.

This isolation shove All-in by a logical CO player signifies to you that the CO likes their hand enough to shove All-in. They aren't likely with a complete bluff because UTG is already All-in. The CO probably has either a "premium hand" themselves (like AA) or they have a hand they want to "flip with" - especially if UTG has a reputation of playing too many hands. (CO might even isolate with Ax [Ace-anything] or pocket pair like 22).

You could take a chance with JJ, but given the reasoning and it being a multi-way pot the way the action went down: I think this is a clear fold and you folded correctly. I don't love folding great hands like JJ preflop, but sometimes you have to know "when to hold em and when to fold em." This is a spot JJ might be crushed. UTG range surely contains AA, KK, QQ and even lesser hands we might not be thrilled with against JJ.

Multi-way pots give us a lot less equity (basically chance of winning)

Here is one example:

Let us assume UTG shoved with AsKc and the CO isolated with 2h2s and we hold JdJh (although card suits matter little here). By the way, I just picked hands they could logically have but you could get a more accurate calculation if you typed in the range of hands you suspected they both would play this way, but I'm keeping it simple just to illustrate how JJ fares in this multi-way pot.

Given this, the approximate chance of winning would be (according to the free poker program Equilab)...

UTG 35.53%
CO 16.98%
Our JJ in SB 47.48%

True, we are favored in this hand but less than 50% equity is not ideal and remember they BOTH had more chips than us, so we are risking our tournament life while they are not! I don't know the payout structure or blinds/antes format etc. but I don't like busting over 50% of the time when our opponents are not risking their tournament life.

Remember this is only the equity for these specific hands though - a range is more accurate. Besides, even one opponent "out of line" and one opponent with a "premium hand" is terrible for us.

Here is one more possible example to convey this point, this time the exact card holdings are:

UTG ("out of line shove as a bluff with potential") As2s
CO ("premium hand" that isolates) KhKd
SB (us risking tournament life since both cover our stack) JhJd

Now in this scenario, the equity calculation gives:

UTG: 29.36%
CO: 53.83%
SB: 16.80%

And our JJ is the worst of all because KK crushes us and even the Ace-rag has outs to hitting an Ace.

Details in these things is everything. If the UTG and CO players have been making fishy plays all game, then a "loose" call with JJ might be reasonable. It is certainly justifiable - especially if you are okay busting here for the chance of having a larger chip stack. Otherwise, folding JJ is the clear best line of action I think; without additional information like this, then JJ is a fold. Plus, when in doubt, it is probably best to fold. It is way less costly to fold "incorrectly" and give up your sb (which is typically half of the bb in most games so you aren't even sacrificing one bb!) than to be All-in with a bad spot. I like your fold with JJ here, but the reasoning makes the decision. If you were somehow first one All-in then All-in shove with JJ yourself might even be reasonable and who knows...the ones after you might be encouraged to fold hands like JJ for the reasoning similar to what was given here!
 
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eetenor

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Pair of js in SB with 25 blinds. UTG goes all in preflop with 28 blinds, CO goes all in with 46 blinds, I fold. That's wrong?


Thank you for posting.

You can fold this hand as you have enough chips to still use a skill advantage over the field. Also in freerolls villains are open shoving their QQ KK and even AA and the second V will re-shove the same hands to avoid weird suck outs.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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