This is a discussion on Hand Odds vs. Pot Odds within the online poker forums, in the Learning Poker section; I posted thread somewhat similar to this one when I first joined. Although this post is the same subject matter, the questions in this one 

Hand Odds vs. Pot Odds 
#1




Hand Odds vs. Pot Odds
I posted thread somewhat similar to this one when I first joined. Although this post is the same subject matter, the questions in this one delve deeper into hand odds and pot odds. For this post I want to outline how I understand things to be, and then have someone look it over and tell me yea or nay. Ok let's get into it.
Now the way I understand things to work is like this. Lets say for this example that there is a total of $15 in the pot. The villain leads out and bets $10 on the flop making the pot $25. I believe that I am behind in the hand, but I am open ended for a total of 8 outs. I take the 8 outs and multiple them by 4. This gets me to 32. Then I add one to get 33. This means if I see this hand to the end I have a 33% chance of making the straight. 100/33=3.030303, so I am basically looking at 3 to 1 odds against making the hand. Now I look at the pot odds I am being offered. It will cost me $10 to win $25. So $25/$10=2.5. Now I put that together. The odds are 3 to 1 against making the hand and I am only being offered 2.5 to 1 on my money. The odds against me making the hand are greater than the odds I am being offered for my $10 call. I should fold. Now let's look at the same situation only this time there is the $15 in the pot. The villain puts in a $10 bet. There is one caller before it gets to me. That brings the pot total to $35. It cost me $10 to call. Now the pot is offering me 3.5 to 1 on my call. Again the odds are 3 to 1 against me making my straight, but this time the pot is offering me 3.5 to 1 on my money. I should call. Does all this sound right? What if anything do I have wrong here with the way I am looking at things? Thanks in advanced.
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#2




I believe that is wrong
15 in the pot you have 8 outs, winning chance 33% so some one bet 10 into the pot, as final action, you are offering 10 to call 10+15= 25. you need to call. simply count in 10 to call 25 situation. you call 3 times " on average" you spend 30, you win 1 time, total win is 10+25= 35 as your total win, and final amount in your account your total spend 30 ______________________ so 3 times average total, your account starting from 30 finished with 35. your net win in the long run is 3530=5 you need to call. not fold.
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#3




2 things wrong here .... if you need to call 10 bucks into 30 pot you got 1/3 but you actually need 25 percent not 33 to make the call because three times you lose 10 bucks and the fourth time you hit and win 30 bucks so your breakeven call when pot odds are 1/3 are 1/3+1 or 1/4 or 25 percent. and the second important thing is that this is until the river... if you have 1/3 on flop and miss and opponent bets again 1/3 .... you dont have the odds. you have half of it for the turn or 16 percent so it is not that easy.... basically if you have one dollar on the flop and the pot is 30 cents and have 1/3 odds go all in
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#4




also there are implied odds if you think your opponent cant fold aa and you are some deep stack you can call against odds because when you hit you will gain big...
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#5




re: Poker & Hand Odds vs. Pot Odds
I usually do it how I feel. I find pot odds useless since it doesn't help right card to come. Also player can bet higher intentionally so you couldn't call (only because of pot odds).
Also, I noticed many good players, 4060%, don't count pot odds. And, probably not very good players, are ready to make weird calls (only because of pot odds).
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#6




cheeer you are wrong if you think top players dont count their outs and dont do pot odds calculations
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#7




I watched their interviews, heard what they say, saw how they act. I talked not about all good players, reread.
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#8




the videos are very sellective, they show weird hands but the pros are forced to play like that because they are very good at pot odds and dont make mistakes. if they raise ak utg everybody will put him on such a hand and he cant make money thats why sometimes they play 45suited utg... this is wrong at the stakes we are in
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#9




I talked not about weird hands, but about weird calls. To play random hands is fine to make your game more complicated.
For example, I watched live stream (sellective videos?) where A2 tried to bluff KK on preflop by raising, reraising. When KK went all in, one commentator (who's now a player) said that A2 could call, because he has pot odds. Again. I didn't tell they don't use it. I said some use it, some don't. means: some count exact amount, some imagine it approximately. How they feel.
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#10




re: Poker & Hand Odds vs. Pot Odds
well a2 vs kk has 30 percent equity before flop so if you have 300$ and the pot is 1000$ if you fold you make mathematical mistake
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#11




And then in the second example I used:
Thanks to everybody for all the replies.
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#12




my Idea is you need to call both examples meaning both example are worth a call.
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#13




Remember thats with 2 cards to come and there could be a bet also on turn, then there is implied odds and reverse implied odds
If you expect to win a lot more money from your opponent after you make your draw, you have good implied odds. If you anticipate that you will not be able to get any more money out of your opponent on future rounds, then you have little or no implied odds All this plus pot odds go hand in hand and is part of being a winning player Even though you might have 3.5 to 1 with 8 outs your only roughly going to hit the cards 16% of the time on the turn
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#14




Pot Odds When calculating pot odds you need to count everything you will win compared to the bet size for example; pot + villains bet + heroes call= pot odds. For example; pot is 15 + players bet of 10 + your call of 10 = 35/ original bet 10 =3.51 Equity: number of outs (8)*4=32 32/68=2.1 So PO 3.51 and EQ 2.11 we should call. If you have over 8 outs on the flop you should work your equity like so; (number of outs * 4)  (number of outs  8) = Equity Someone correct me if I am wrong but to me that's the math behind it? Side note/ This isn't taking into consideration of anti outs and implied odds.
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Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Never drink and derive.. 
#15




re: Poker & Hand Odds vs. Pot Odds
Now what are the equity odds as you are describing them here? I am not familiar with how you are getting to your 2.1 to 1. The way I've always know it is to take your number of outs (8) and multiple that by 4 and then add one to the total to see the percentage chance you have to make your hand. Then divide 100 by your percentage to figure out your odds against making your hand. In the case of my example I am working with a hand that is 3 to 1 against making the hand. Am I right thus far? Now here comes a little more confusion on my part. It has to do with the ratio 3 to 1. Does 3 to 1 against making the hand mean that if I play the hand 3 times I will win 1 time, or is it if I play 4 time I will loose 3 times and win once? I would love for someone to help me with this. Thanks again to everyone for your replies.
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#16




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#19




Why is it when using the ration method we do not include our call into the pot, but using the other method we do?
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Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Never drink and derive.. 
#20




re: Poker & Hand Odds vs. Pot Odds
Read the correction to my post in thread from ohshootmybad
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Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Never drink and derive.. 
#21




I simply cannot believe such a simple calculation could develop into such tortuous and complex calculations. You are sitting at a poker table and need a sure and quick method to arrive at an answer to an odds problem. There is $25 in the pot and it will cost you $10 to play ie odds of $25/$10 =2.5. You have 8 outs and can see 5 of the 47 unknown cards. Your winning odds are (478) divided by 8, which is 39/8 = 4.875/1. You don't have an option, FOLD
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#22




To answer your question: because we just do. Seriously, though, it just has to do with converting percentage to ratio. Honestly, I don't know if I can explain it correctly but I'll do my best. Lets say a pot is $100 after your opponent bet $25. You need to call $25 to win $100. Using the ratio method, we can see its: $100:$25 or 4:1 pot odds. 4:1 = 20% chance of hitting. Out of 5 [4+1] tries, you win 4, lose 1. However, $25 is not 20% of $100, it's 25%. So, in order to make sure our ratio method and percentage method are the same, we must include our call with the pot. So, $25 is 20% of $125.
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#23




OP... free odds and outs trainer. Run this for a week or so and you'll have this stuff down. No catch, it's free:
http://www.acepokersolutions.com/Pok...tycalculator/ Run it in basic mode, and then advanced mode once you have that down.
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NeXGen Poker HUD and Database  Poker Tracking w/ DriveHUD. Eliminate your poker leaks with leak buster poker software. Run a HUD on pokerbros, Upoker, Poker King and more w/ the Asian hand converter. 
#24




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Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Never drink and derive.. 
#25




re: Poker & Hand Odds vs. Pot Odds
Here is a couple of links I found that explain the stuff I was trying to figure out in a way that I could understand. I am posting it here because I know other people will see this post and other people will find the info helpful. http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/hownottosuckatpokerlearnbasicodds http://www.pokerlistings.com/strategy/pokermath/howtocalculatepotoddsandequityequity Thank you to everyone who has helped make this thread awesome. A real big thank you to ohshootmybad and MoeJurphy for getting me pointed in the right direction. Without what you both posted I don't think I would've know what I was looking for to find those links I just posted. Cheers, Jay
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