Floating (Day 29 Course Discussion)

Debi

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Floating is calling the flop with a weak hand with the intention of taking down the pot before showdown.

If you have not yet read Day 29 and watched the video for Day 29 - take a few minutes now to do that and then come back here to discuss it:

Floating

You should be floating when in position, facing a small bet, convinced your opponent is on a wide range and you have the potential to improve your hand by the river.

Collin and Katie will be happy to discuss floating in more depth with us in this thread.

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Polytarp

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I've never heard of this poker term before but I have used some of the actions in games that I have played. In the quiz example, the opponent who came out with minimum bets was just dumb. If the video had shown the ultimate conclusion of that game I think Collin had his chips. What I took from this was that if players act in a rational and consistent manner then they can be characterized. Big bets signify confidence, small bets don't. Going a level deeper, I try to understand what a player is willing to lose regardless of what they are holding. What a player wants to win seems to be more complicated and contingent on immediate circumstances. The key difference here is that I may value a KK differently than another player under the identical circumstances. ICM determines the best numbers based on competing "rational" choices which may not always be the case. Am I correct in thinking this way..say if I was playing Gus Hansen?
 
Collin Moshman

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Yes definitely Poly, even against a player like Hansen ICM will give us the right numbers when it comes to these decisions.
 
cferdi

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Like Poly, I think I have done this on occasion without realising the 'term' for it was floating. I'd heard of it, but wasn't sure what it was, so again, my knowledge-base has increased.

Now, whilst I have occasionally played this way, it has been only on rare occasions and often against very passive opponents. Not sure I'm 'yet' confident enough to make this play often, but will certainly keep the option in mind and consider more factors as shown to us here.

Once again, a huge thank you, and looking forward to the final lesson (I think;))
 
Katie Dozier

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Like Poly, I think I have done this on occasion without realising the 'term' for it was floating. I'd heard of it, but wasn't sure what it was, so again, my knowledge-base has increased.

Now, whilst I have occasionally played this way, it has been only on rare occasions and often against very passive opponents. Not sure I'm 'yet' confident enough to make this play often, but will certainly keep the option in mind and consider more factors as shown to us here.

Once again, a huge thank you, and looking forward to the final lesson (I think;))
Very glad to hear it, cferdi! Thank you :)
 
Phoenix Wright

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Truth be told, I never heard the poker term "floating" before, so pretty much everything here was new for me :D Sure, I knew that betting the c-bettor sometimes induces them to shutdown, but I didn't know there was a name for this action; I just thought it was betting the Turn and catching them with a weaker hand.
 
J

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Day 29- Floating

I really like this style of play because it helps us to train to be a good catch bluff.

It is also good for us to note the opponents, how he plays strong but worthless hands on the flop (semi-bluf), according to his raises and call.

I usually prefer to float with players who check behind because they usually try the initial raise to keep everyone off the flop and usually have semi-bluff or even nothing.

I really liked the way of analyzing the entry hands in the floating, always placing some value, even if it is minimal, as in the case of the backdoor flush.:captain:
 
Katie Dozier

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Truth be told, I never heard the poker term "floating" before, so pretty much everything here was new for me :D Sure, I knew that betting the c-bettor sometimes induces them to shutdown, but I didn't know there was a name for this action; I just thought it was betting the Turn and catching them with a weaker hand.

That's awesome, thanks!

I really like this style of play because it helps us to train to be a good catch bluff.

It is also good for us to note the opponents, how he plays strong but worthless hands on the flop (semi-bluf), according to his raises and call.

I usually prefer to float with players who check behind because they usually try the initial raise to keep everyone off the flop and usually have semi-bluff or even nothing.

I really liked the way of analyzing the entry hands in the floating, always placing some value, even if it is minimal, as in the case of the backdoor flush.:captain:
That's a great example of a time to float and lol at the captain smiley :D
 
Bozovicdj

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Right off the bat, that J7o hand is pretty ok, I agree with the reasoning behind floating that hand, I do prefer to have two overs when floating or a hand that has an over card + gut shot, if it takes away a flush out or something, even better.
However, I don't see why would floating with T6s be any good here? It seems like a big dissipation of chips in the long run.
We are only able to bet that turn cause we picked some out, and some draw making our hand a semi-bluff of sorts. How often will that happen? Also, not all opponents shut down easily, so it seems that in the long run, that particular play, with T6s isn't really profitable.
If we had QTo in that same spot, I'd be down with it, but T6 is just way wide IMO. Honestly if we did it with that hand, it seems intuitive that I should do the same with 72o, cause it's no longer about what I have, but about whether my opponent missed and will shut down on the turn.

And then the KJo hand in BB - agree on the preflop, however, disagree with the flop decision.
Now, let's think for a second about our defending range that flats from BB there. KJ is actually at the very top of it, but even if it wasn't, that flop seems like a great flop for a BB defending range. We can flop 2P, nuts, or some FD+gutter so calling IP here would be better, then that particular T6s hand.
 
Edison A

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Hi Collin and Katie, my game is constantly criticized because in the beginning of tournaments I play Floating , I do it because the blinds are small and I look for an opportunity to tie a strong hand in the FLOP, some say FISH, but that affects me
But when the blinds go up I change my game mode and my game becomes more solid
I am also a very aggressive player in the blinds, I do it when the blinds are high, sometimes it has not been good for me to be, but it is something that I cannot change, it is difficult to change your game mode when you have been playing like this for years, but these they have taught me that you can mold your game to be more winning, Thanks for all this teaching, I am very grateful
 
Collin Moshman

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Right off the bat, that J7o hand is pretty ok, I agree with the reasoning behind floating that hand, I do prefer to have two overs when floating or a hand that has an over card + gut shot, if it takes away a flush out or something, even better.
However, I don't see why would floating with T6s be any good here? It seems like a big dissipation of chips in the long run.
We are only able to bet that turn cause we picked some out, and some draw making our hand a semi-bluff of sorts. How often will that happen? Also, not all opponents shut down easily, so it seems that in the long run, that particular play, with T6s isn't really profitable.
If we had QTo in that same spot, I'd be down with it, but T6 is just way wide IMO. Honestly if we did it with that hand, it seems intuitive that I should do the same with 72o, cause it's no longer about what I have, but about whether my opponent missed and will shut down on the turn.

And then the KJo hand in BB - agree on the preflop, however, disagree with the flop decision.
Now, let's think for a second about our defending range that flats from BB there. KJ is actually at the very top of it, but even if it wasn't, that flop seems like a great flop for a BB defending range. We can flop 2P, nuts, or some FD+gutter so calling IP here would be better, then that particular T6s hand.

Floating with the T6s is profitable here. We have position against an opponent who's betting small; usually hasn't connected; and with the ability to improve sometimes. Changing any one of these factors, and I would prefer floating. But here it's the best option. If you're routinely folding to min-bets when you have position and backdoor draws, you're giving up too easily :)
 
Luvart

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Finished Day #29.

Today's lesson was very well-explained, it clears up a lot of things about floating, and it's another one concept that I can transfer to cash games. I almost never gave a lot of thought on floating, I will work on it further.

For today's quiz question, opponent donk bets ~20% of the pot, he can have the flush draw, a mid pair like 66, 77, a pair of 5s, a lot of Qx, Jx hands, we don't have any backdoor draw, but I could make a call, and then fire any non-club turn if opponent checks. But I would even consider a raise on the flop to finish the hand here, and if we get call, we give up the turn.

Tomorrow with Day #30.
 
Katie Dozier

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Finished Day #29.

Today's lesson was very well-explained, it clears up a lot of things about floating, and it's another one concept that I can transfer to cash games. I almost never gave a lot of thought on floating, I will work on it further.

For today's quiz question, opponent donk bets ~20% of the pot, he can have the flush draw, a mid pair like 66, 77, a pair of 5s, a lot of Qx, Jx hands, we don't have any backdoor draw, but I could make a call, and then fire any non-club turn if opponent checks. But I would even consider a raise on the flop to finish the hand here, and if we get call, we give up the turn.

Tomorrow with Day #30.

So glad to hear that you enjoyed Day 29! Looks like you're doing an awesome job completing the course and you've almost completed the whole thing! :)
 
redboy23

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Hi CCers,


On bubble play in a CC freeroll today, I pick up AKs and decide to take a flop betting 3xBB and get called. Of course, I reminded myself not to get frisky. The flop comes AK7, and being the sucker for punishment that I am, I shove. Villain smiles and shows pocket 7's. I never learn, and by now must be the running joke of CC freerolls :).

Response to video question:

Floating is a new term for me and happy to put a name to the play. I usually do it in the same situation as presented in the video. Villain did not show any aggression pre-flop and is unlikely to have an ace. So yes, this is a good spot to float.

If my stack could afford it, I would raise villain and try to take the pot down right there!

Float away... by all means, can hit a better pair than the 3 or 5.
 
gardin555

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Very good lesson, float is a powerful strategy, I do it while I´m in position and I try to identify the right moment to do it, especially when playing against an opponent who make a lot of preflop or c-bet on the flop. Thanks for the course, good level and very well explained. :)


 
Debi

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Very good lesson, float is a powerful strategy, I do it while I´m in position and I try to identify the right moment to do it, especially when playing against an opponent who make a lot of preflop or c-bet on the flop. Thanks for the course, good level and very well explained. :)

Glad to hear you are enjoying the course!
 
Katie Dozier

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Very good lesson, float is a powerful strategy, I do it while I´m in position and I try to identify the right moment to do it, especially when playing against an opponent who make a lot of preflop or c-bet on the flop. Thanks for the course, good level and very well explained. :)
Hooray, I'm so happy to hear this :)
 
johnnylawford

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Great chapter! I'm surprised you guys don't mention how light your opp calls as a factor in whether to float a c-bet. For instance, I'm assuming you should float less against someone who will call you down with second pair on the turn/river then someone playing fit or fold. Is there a particular reason this wasn't one of the factors for when to float?
 
Collin Moshman

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Great chapter! I'm surprised you guys don't mention how light your opp calls as a factor in whether to float a c-bet. For instance, I'm assuming you should float less against someone who will call you down with second pair on the turn/river then someone playing fit or fold. Is there a particular reason this wasn't one of the factors for when to float?


Good point, I agree that can be a factor, but you're not usually floating someone to get them to lay down made hands. We generally assume if they actually have a hand, then we're getting called. Our sources of profit are:

** Opponent is weak and gives up (primary);

** We backdoor a hand or hit decent showdown value like second pair;

** Our opponent is strong but has to give up when 4 to a flush hit, for example.

So being on a wide range pre-flop combined with high c-bet frequency are more important than the likelihood he'll give up a 2nd-pair type hand on the late streets. But you're right that it's still a factor and would have been good to mention :)
 
Good Man

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Good day! Today I first learned and understood what floating is. This lesson was quite unusual for me. This is something new for me.
Answer to the quiz question: most likely I would have reset in this case, and I think this is often my mistake. Passivity is one of the reasons I often give up on postflop, I should change that. And start fighting intelligently in such cases. And what you did at the end. It was crazy and very brave at the same time well calculated on your part. The position also gave us an advantage. You roughly analyzed his range of hands by his actions, which was the key to winning in this case. This is the beauty of this technique !




Life is a game , play beautiful
 
carmenzu

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Well not hard to do if the PF and Cbet bets are not that high.
Continuation betting is a huge part of the game and floating looks to exploit that.
Following a continuation bet when the person “floating” with a call suspects the player may not have a strong hand, but is waiting until the turn or river to make the bluff bet or raise.
 
Collin Moshman

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Well not hard to do if the PF and Cbet bets are not that high.
Continuation betting is a huge part of the game and floating looks to exploit that.
Following a continuation bet when the person “floating” with a call suspects the player may not have a strong hand, but is waiting until the turn or river to make the bluff bet or raise.


That really gets to the heart of it Carmenzu -- if c-betting wasn't a common strategy, floating would go down significantly in importance. But the more people are betting the flop just because they raised pre, the more floating opportunities come up.
 
carmenzu

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That really gets to the heart of it Carmenzu -- if c-betting wasn't a common strategy, floating would go down significantly in importance. But the more people are betting the flop just because they raised pre, the more floating opportunities come up.



I have already said it in another post, but I will say it again, I was delighted with the course, and I saved the playlist to enjoy listening to some chapters every day, repetition will help me to reinforce knowledge, read or listen to advice just one time is not enough.
Thanks, again.
 
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