Donk betting from the BB

[Dobbler1]

Curious about what people think about donk betting from the BB, specifically when you, or even your range, connect with the flop much better than your opponent's range?

On the one hand, you're denying the villain the opportunity at cbet bluffing you. On the other hand, if you make a middle strength pair and your opponent has over cards, you're protecting the hand you do have and charging them to draw for their overpair. In some circles donk betting is thought of as always a bad idea. Thoughts?

 

[YLAN]

Howdy. This is just what I think. Donk bet, fish move, or whatever peeps in those circles who do not understand call it, its your move! If you find a purpose & can make it "work" with all the other parameters then keep it in your arsenal. If you cannot make it work, then you know what to do. As you know, its not all about statistics but psych war as well.

 

[Aballinamion]

Check this thread out:

How to react to donkey bet

How to react to donkey bet: Examples for 6-MAX Cash Tables a) Multi-way pot: We open AcKs from MP and we get called both from SB and BB: Flop: Th6d7c SB checks and BB donks flop: We must be very careful in flops like this when we are holding AJ+ and JJ+ Of course that in this same...

www.cardschat.com

 

[fundiver199]

As everything else in poker its situational. The term "donk bet" came up, because bad players AKA "donks" play out of flow more often than good players, and they often do it in spots, where its not good strategy. But there are situations, where its completely fine including:

* Multiway pots
* Passive preflop raiser (low C-bet %)
* Low boards against an EP open
* Shallow stacks

Regarding the theme of shallow stacks we often want to check-raise our strongest hands and some bluffs / draws. But if stacks are shallow enough to get all the chips in with a simple bet, bet, shove line, that can sometimes be better. Or at the extreme end we find the so called stop-and-go play, which is sometimes used in tournaments, when stacks are very short, and we defend our big blind to a min-raise.

 

[spectralwave]

Raise bb pre flop has a wide range, you just have to know how to play and make the best raise, the best pre-flop bet is the one that counts.

 

[Luvepoker]

I don't recommend donk betting from the BB most of the time but I do believe depending on the situation that it is not a bad move to make. Of course this depends on the player that table image i have stack size and type of flop. It should not be done often and should a be a rare move.

 

[Dobbler1]

I dont recomend donk betting from the BB most of the time but I do believe depending on the situation that it is not a bad move to make. Of course this depends on the player that tale image i have stack size and type of flop. It should not be done often and should a be a rare move.

Why do you make that recommendation?

 

[Luvepoker]

Why do you make that recommendation?

Its really dependant on the situation and player I am against. Say a very tight player raises fro early position. Flop is 743. If I hit this flop strongly and I belive the player in question will not put in chips why not make a bet? If a very tight player has a big pair and i flop 2 pair why not bet to get value from him? If he has nothing so be it but why not attempt to get that value while you can? Again rare circumstances.

 

[Dobbler1]

Its really dependant on the situation and player I am against. Say a very tight player raises fro early position. Flop is 743. If I hit this flop strongly and I belive the player in question will not put in chips why not make a bet? If a very tight player has a big pair and i flop 2 pair why not bet to get value from him? If he has nothing so be it but why not attempt to get that value while you can? Again rare circumstances.

Okay, that's a situational response, but your first response was more general. Why should you only donk bet from the BB extremely rarely? Is there an underlying principle you're basing this advice on?

 

[TeUnit]

I think a check raise is a better move most of the time than a donk bet in the BB. If the flop hits your range better and or they cbet too much....why bet if they are just gonna fold.

I think you realize more EV if you let them Cbet and then reraise.

When you donk the BB you are kinda of forcing the villan to play well, ie if they dont have a hand they fold and if they do they 3bet.

 

[Station_Master]

Okay, that's a situational response, but your first response was more general. Why should you only donk bet from the BB extremely rarely? Is there an underlying principle you're basing this advice on?

Because you rarely have the range/equity advantage

 

[Dobbler1]

Because you rarely have the range/equity advantage

Well that's not really true. Lots of flops don't have Broadway cards. You have a range or equity advantage less often then not, but that's different from saying you rarely have it.

 

[Dobbler1]

I think a check raise is a better move most of the time than a donk bet in the BB. If the flop hits your range better and or they cbet too much....why bet if they are just gonna fold.

I think you realize more EV if you let them Cbet and then reraise.

When you donk the BB you are kinda of forcing the villan to play well, ie if they dont have a hand they fold and if they do they 3bet.

If I know a player cbets most flops, then we're in a different position. Lots of players (I would suggest many good players) don't automatically cbet overcards when the flop doesn't hit their range.

Consider AK suited against 76suited. Flop comes 752 rainbow with a backdoor flush draw for villain. Villain is still 25% to hit by the river. With my pair of 7s with a 6 kicker an no strong draw, do I want to let it check/check-call to the river and loose one in four times? With a hand like this, some showdown value, but decent chance to be behind when you get to the river, you generally want pot control, right? Check raising isn't good pot control, and check calling or just checking offers no fold equity. That's why I think there's something to be said for donk betting a little more often than "very rarely". Obviously each situation is unique.

Do I have, maybe a small point, or am I totally out to lunch?

 

[Station_Master]

Well that's not really true. Lots of flops don't have Broadway cards. You have a range or equity advantage less often then not, but that's different from saying you rarely have it.

Even if the flop comes 752 IP will still have the range advantage as AA KK, QQ are very strong on this board and the BB wont have them. It's really only low connected flop where BB can javerange advantage e.g. 765.

 

[TeUnit]

If I know a player cbets most flops, then we're in a different position. Lots of players (I would suggest many good players) don't automatically cbet overcards when the flop doesn't hit their range.

Consider AK suited against 76suited. Flop comes 752 rainbow with a backdoor flush draw for villain. Villain is still 25% to hit by the river. With my pair of 7s with a 6 kicker an no strong draw, do I want to let it check/check-call to the river and loose one in four times? With a hand like this, some showdown value, but decent chance to be behind when you get to the river, you generally want pot control, right? Check raising isn't good pot control, and check calling or just checking offers no fold equity. That's why I think there's something to be said for donk betting a little more often than "very rarely". Obviously each situation is unique.

Do I have, maybe a small point, or am I totally out to lunch?

So if the villan has AK, they are probably going to cbet right? Then I think the check raise would work great.

They should realize that the flop hit your range and missed theirs.

The longer you keep them in the hand, the better chance he has of improving.

But, with all things poker I think you need to take in account effective stack sizes in your decision.

 

[Dobbler1]

Even if the flop comes 752 IP will still have the range advantage as AA KK, QQ are very strong on this board and the BB wont have them. It's really only low connected flop where BB can javerange advantage e.g. 765.

One of us doesn't understand ranges, and I think I do. The early position player does have a handful of overpairs in their range, along with maybe pocket 7s, along with lots of broadway cards. We have a handful of pocket 7s, 5s and dueces too, along with lots of middle cards like 5s and 7s, and even some deuces. The 752 connects much better with the BB range than an early position raiser. The point of ranges isn't to determine and consider every possible hand they might have, but the frequency when they will have certain cards. BB will have cards that connect (even accounting for overpairs) with a low board at a higher frequency than an early position player.

 

[Dobbler1]

So if the villan has AK, they are probably going to cbet right? Then I think the check raise would work great.

They should realize that the flop hit your range and missed theirs.

The longer you keep them in the hand, the better chance he has of improving.

But, with all things poker I think you need to take in account effective stack sizes in your decision.

I agree that the longer they are in the hand, the worse it is for us. Does donk betting keep them in the hand longer? I thought not. Donk betting only gives them one way to stay in the hand, and that's by making the negative EV play of calling. Checking gives them two ways to stay in the hand. Checking back or calling your check raise, one a -ev decision, the other an opportunity to improve their hand for no cost.

I understand the idea behind check raising, and I think it makes sense lots of the time. Do you understand my reasoning behind donk betting on some occasions? I'm not saying that you should make it part of your game. I just want to see if I'm totally out to lunch, which is possible, or not. Nothing you've said indicates to me that I'm totally out to lunch.

 

[TeUnit]

I understand the idea behind check raising, and I think it makes sense lots of the time. Do you understand my reasoning behind donk betting on some occasions? I'm not saying that you should do it. I just want to see if I'm totally out to lunch, which is possible, or not. Nothing you've said indicates to me that I'm totally out to lunch.

I think there are times when a donk bet can be ok, and in your example a low connected flop is a good place.

The flop is great for your range and horrible for his.