Do you call with pocket jacks vs a 3bet?

T

tealurker

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I know the question doesn't include all the necessary details, so:
I'm having pocket jacks on a 6-max micro-stakes (2NL) table, sitting in the BB. CO raises, SB reraises. I call. CO shoves >my stack. SB who already has 50% of his stack in the pot calls. I call.

CO shows KK
SB shows QQ
KK wins.

Is this nonetheless an acceptable play? Should I rather have folded after the 3bet?
Note that BB was quite a loose player, and the CO raise could've been an attempt to steal.

CO: ($3.56 in chips)
Button: ($0.65 in chips)
SB: ($0.81 in chips)
BB: Me ($2.76 in chips)
HJ: HJ ($1.04 in chips)

MP: sitting out

SB: posts small blind $0.01
Me: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to me [Jd Js]
HJ: calls $0.02
CO: raises $0.08 to $0.10
Button: folds
SB: raises $0.24 to $0.34
Me: calls $0.32
HJ: folds
CO: raises $3.22 to $3.56 and is all-in
SB: calls $0.47 and is all-in
Me: calls $2.42 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($0.80) returned to CO
*** FLOP *** [3c 5d Ad]
*** TURN *** [3c 5d Ad] [6d]
*** RIVER *** [3c 5d Ad 6d] [3s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Me: shows [Jd Js] (two pair, Jacks and Threes)
CO: shows [Ks Kh] (two pair, Kings and Threes)
CO collected $3.77 from side pot
SB: shows [Qd Qc] (two pair, Queens and Threes)
CO collected $2.36 from main pot
SB cashed out the hand for $0.44
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.35 Main pot $2.36. Side pot $3.77. | Rake $0.22
 
Dejange

Dejange

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Not a cash game guru, not a guru at all in poker, still :D

But there will be some feedbacks, I am sure about that :top:
 
F

fundiver199

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Having a hand like TT or JJ, when there has already been a 3-bet ahead of you, is generally a pretty tough spot. If you call, you are not closing action, so part of the time you will face a 4-bet from the original raiser, as happened in this hand.

You could cold 4-bet yourself, but the problem with this is, that against a lot of players you are then only getting action, when you are behind to QQ+ or sometimes flipping with AK. So often it is actually fine to just get out of the way, unless you have a read on the 3-better, that he is far out of line.

In this particular situation you are also facing a very large 3-bet, because the hand started with a limp, which increased the first raise from the usual 3BB to 5BB. This leave you less room to 4-bet, and it also mean, you lose more, if you call and then fold to a 4-bet.

Even if original raiser just call, postflop is going to be very awkward because of SBs stack size. Pot is going to be 1,02$, and SB will only have 0,47$ behind. This mean, that if SB jam the flop, which he will probably do a lot as the preflop raiser, you will be getting 3:1, so you pretty much has to call it off, except maybe on the absolutely worst flops like AK4 or AQ8.

And when you call it off, you will still have the original raiser left to act behind you, who can come along for the ride or put in a raise. So already preflop it is clear, that if you enter this pot, you will very quickly end up in a situation, where you are risking your entire 138BB stack against CO, and usually you will be doing this with either a slight overpair or second pair.

I dont think, this is going to be long term profitable, and for that reason I would just fold preflop, when the action first got to me. And if I accidentally made the call, for instance because I was a little tilted or distracted, and I then faced a 4-bet jam for my entire stack, then I would snap fold and take a note on, what they both had.
 
T

tealurker

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Thank you so much for the detailed analysis of the situation. It sounds like great advice. I sometimes feel like I have put already so much of my stack on the table that I have to call, while not realising how much larger my remaining stack actually is. Anyway, I'll try to imprint your insight.

One thing, what did you exactly mean by this:

"You could cold 4-bet yourself, but the problem with this is, that against a lot of players you are then only getting action, when you are behind to QQ+ or sometimes flipping with AK."

Do you mean by that: the opponent having QQ+ or AK? (flipping coming from flipping a coin?)
 
Phoenix Wright

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Having a hand like TT or JJ, when there has already been a 3-bet ahead of you, is generally a pretty tough spot. If you call, you are not closing action, so part of the time you will face a 4-bet from the original raiser, as happened in this hand...

Very detailed response and I also agree with this. It is a tough spot for sure and a hand like JJ is still really good most of the time. If you were the ones closing the action, then this may very well be a shove; however, as noted, this is much different "when there has already been a 3-bet ahead of you..."

In this scenario, we know they both probably are not bluffing and based on how tight they are, we may have to fold JJ. If they play fairly reasonably and fairly tight play, then folding JJ is understandable.

Thank you so much for the detailed analysis of the situation. It sounds like great advice. I sometimes feel like I have put already so much of my stack on the table that I have to call, while not realising how much larger my remaining stack actually is. Anyway, I'll try to imprint your insight.

One thing, what did you exactly mean by this:

"You could cold 4-bet yourself, but the problem with this is, that against a lot of players you are then only getting action, when you are behind to QQ+ or sometimes flipping with AK."

Do you mean by that: the opponent having QQ+ or AK? (flipping coming from flipping a coin?)

"flipping with" is a poker term (yes, it is a coin reference) that describes when two hands have close to 50% equity each. You might as well flip a coin and this is not usually how strong poker players want to get their chips in: especially with all-in situations. AK and pocket 2 hands are classic examples of a "coin flip" situation in poker. AK is typically a really good hand, but this principle illustrates how vulnerable it is to made hands like pocket pairs (even a pair as low as 2).
 
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