What do you think are the mistakes we lose with Pocket AA?

Not raising pre-flop when you have pocket Aces. Then the big blind with two mediocre cards can get 2 pair on the flop because we did not raise.

Normally due to anxiety, we always think that no one can beat us and we want to go all in

Originally Posted by eberetta1

Not raising pre-flop when you have pocket Aces. Then the big blind with two mediocre cards can get 2 pair on the flop because we did not raise.

Excellent point of view, thanks!

Originally Posted by Acechador

Normally due to anxiety, we always think that no one can beat us and we want to go all in

I agree, sometimes we want more than 1 player to CALL, but it is dangerous to play Pocket AA against more than 1 player

Originally Posted by Edison A

I agree, sometimes we want more than 1 player to CALL, but it is dangerous to play Pocket AA against more than 1 player

Though I don't disagree and have played in pots holding AA beating out KK, QQ all-in, how would you quantify "dangerous?" In blackjack there's the concept of cross-correlated bets but in poker you need to address hand-ranges, position, bet sizing and a couple of other things. How would you "calculate" your bet sizing when holding AA relative to position in a 9 handed game?
Cheers.

The more people in the hand, the less likely you are to win hence the "danger" increasing. Typically you want to raise bigger from early position, so maybe raise 3-4x from UTG compared to just 2-2.5x on the button.

In answer to the original question: I think most people raise and even bet pre with aces, but when a really wet board comes down they CANNOT fold because "muh aces tho". They'll call down even when it's incredibly obvious they're beat through emotional attachment to the rockets.

Originally Posted by Edison A

What do you think are the mistakes we lose with Pocket AA?

The main one is actually in the way, this question is written. It is the assumption, that if we have AA, we are supposed to always win. This causes people to take AA to far postflop and lose to much, when someone did in fact crack them. The other general mistake is slowplaying them to much preflop and on the flop. Most of the time AA wont improve, and this mean, the relative strength of the hand goes down, as more cards are dealt. It is therefore almost always better to get the money in early rather than late, when perhaps we are actually beat.

I think it's played very aggressively, before the flop, if more people limp or raise, it's worth raising up to 5-6x BB to filter out your opponents.

It's important to distinguish between times we lose and played correctly, versus times we lose and made a mistake.

AA vs KK pre-flop: We still lose ~ 20% of the time. We won long-term EV and shouldn't worry because there's nothing we could do different.

If you make a mistake, it's often going to be taking the hand too far post-flop with deep stacks. For example:

We raise pre-flop with As Ac and get three callers.

Flop: 7h 6h 5h

Action: First player bets, second player calls, third player raises. This is a clear fold; if we put any more money in the pot, we are making a mistake (unless stacks are very short!)

It’s simple. Laying down AA when you’ve had a bad run out. Or laying down the hand to quickly when you’re opponents range doesn’t have enough hands that beat you. It’s usually one or the other

Originally Posted by Acechador;5701831[I

"Poker is 100% skill and 50% luck." - Phil Hellmuth[/I]

... and 10% mathematics ,,,

Originally Posted by Lina1020

I think it's played very aggressively, before the flop, if more people limp or raise, it's worth raising up to 5-6x BB to filter out your opponents.

Of course, aggressiveness is important, Thanks for your comment

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

It's important to distinguish between times we lose and played correctly, versus times we lose and made a mistake.

AA vs KK pre-flop: We still lose ~ 20% of the time. We won long-term EV and shouldn't worry because there's nothing we could do different.

If you make a mistake, it's often going to be taking the hand too far post-flop with deep stacks. For example:

We raise pre-flop with As Ac and get three callers.

Flop: 7h 6h 5h

Action: First player bets, second player calls, third player raises. This is a clear fold; if we put any more money in the pot, we are making a mistake (unless stacks are very short!)

Thanks Collin for your comment, it will help this thread a lot

Originally Posted by Eric Salvador

It’s simple. Laying down AA when you’ve had a bad run out. Or laying down the hand to quickly when you’re opponents range doesn’t have enough hands that beat you. It’s usually one or the other

For me, this has changed over time. Previously, I used to see this as a wet dream and would just shove. I didn't pay attention to my position, who sat in other positions, pot size, VPIP, etc.

The pendulum swung the other way to underplaying them for a while. I bled less, but I still wasn't achieving much value.

Now, I'd have to say that there are two sides. Pre-flop and Post. Whilst conventional wisdom for some is 3-4BB raise pre-flop, it really depends on the table...so I tend to consider the "equivalent 3X" raise size.

At some tables, a 3BB is treated as little more than an ante. At others people can't fold fast enough when a raise this size comes in. It is not always proportional to stack size.

After the flop, C-betting a wet board rather than just taking my lumps and folding is where I bleed (or perhaps bled) excessively. I might have spent an hour working up a tidy stack just to CB it away on crappy Aces.

All in all, I'd rather play them than not! still finding the sweet spot as to how to play them to which audience.

Originally Posted by Eric Salvador

It’s simple. Laying down AA when you’ve had a bad run out. Or laying down the hand to quickly when you’re opponents range doesn’t have enough hands that beat you. It’s usually one or the other

You are right, thanks for your comment

That is poker, but you will always win. It has a bit of everything and for me 40% of luck, one sometimes has lucky days and others do not.

Probably cause we limp to much and let them get there
sometimes id rather go all-in preflop with AA instead of limpin a 3x etc
and letting them get a cheap flop with 22-1010's suited hands like 78 j9 10j etc and binkin something on the flop.. hurts when you lose those hands when you limp trying to trap them..

Many players have a significant issue with thinking that holding AA entitles them to win a huge pot and that if they didn't win then they were cheated. This theme pops up a lot in complaints about bad beats.

We have to remember that AA is just one pair which can be beat much more easily that we often think. 76 suited will beat AA by the river over 20% of the time: that's more than 1 in 5 AIPF hands that you're going to lose.

Originally Posted by slicheri93

Probably cause we limp to much and let them get there
sometimes id rather go all-in preflop with AA instead of limpin a 3x etc
and letting them get a cheap flop with 22-1010's suited hands like 78 j9 10j etc and binkin something on the flop.. hurts when you lose those hands when you limp trying to trap them..

Very good comment, doing Limp is a mistake

Originally Posted by Propane Goat

Many players have a significant issue with thinking that holding AA entitles them to win a huge pot and that if they didn't win then they were cheated. This theme pops up a lot in complaints about bad beats.

We have to remember that AA is just one pair which can be beat much more easily that we often think. 76 suited will beat AA by the river over 20% of the time: that's more than 1 in 5 AIPF hands that you're going to lose.

The most common complaints are that the system is rigged, but we do an analysis after losing our hand, we realize the mistakes we made
Having Pokets AA does not guarantee that you will win the hand

Regardless of position, you need to raise and raise big or go all in. Why give other players a chance to better their hand?

A pair of aces on the preflop is the strongest hand, but just a pair of aces on the river is not a winning hand. Do not forget about this and do not play too aggressively postflop.

In freerolls AA should be played all in.The benefit will be smaller,but the chance to win is bigger.

Originally Posted by Polytarp

Though I don't disagree and have played in pots holding AA beating out KK, QQ all-in, how would you quantify "dangerous?" In blackjack there's the concept of cross-correlated bets but in poker you need to address hand-ranges, position, bet sizing and a couple of other things. How would you "calculate" your bet sizing when holding AA relative to position in a 9 handed game?
Cheers.

How do I quantify dangerous? Against a single hand you're about 85% with your aces. Against 2 it goes down to 70%. Against 3 you're down to about 60%. Against 4 you're a little over 50%. And then it's all downhill from there.

But if you just get a single caller there's a chance they will fold to your cbet because they have nothing and don't want to continue. So while 2 or 3 callers increases the risk, it also increase the chances you will get action.

As for bet sizing, I don't want to give away the strength of my hand. So I raise or 3 bet with aces the same size as I would other hands I raise or 3 bet with in that spot. The size of my bet depends on the bets or limps in front of me that I am facing and who the players are.

I find usually if I have an AA somebody else does to, lol but its gambling

this may be an agree to disagree type of reply.

i think many players understand why they might lose with aces, but what about the times when they win with aces, but also lose a ton of value by playing it too cautiously?

an example of this would be players that are result oriented and that affects how they play their hands in the future. for example, lets say a player loses with aces 3x in a row against an opponent that chased a flush and hit on the river. then, the 4th time they get aces, they decided to bet all-in on the flop because they think "its better to win a small pot with aces than to lose a big pot against a flush chaser".

while they, technically, did win with aces, they're also giving up a lot value. lets look at 2 examples:

player 1 hates to lose with aces and would rather win a small pot than lose a big one, so they go all-in on the flop to take the pot down. lets say this works out 100% of the time and player 1 takes down a 9.5 bb pot on the flop (after a 4x raise and call). for simplicity, lets say 1 bb = $1

after 100x, player 1 makes 950 bbs or $950 with their aces. not too bad, right?

player 2 wants to get max value for their aces and understands that while they will lose sometimes, they win a lot more in the long run. for this example, we'll say villain has 35% to hit a winning hand on the turn or river. to keep things simple, we'll say player 2 is risking 100 bbs to win a 200 bb pot with 65% equity to win.

ev = [200*.65] - [100*35]
ev = 130 - 35
ev = 95 bbs

player 2 is making $95 on average, which is 10x the $9.50 what player 1 is making, even though player 2 is losing 35/100 times with aces.

so, which player is really winning in the long term?

Originally Posted by Acechador

Normally due to anxiety, we always think that no one can beat us and we want to go all in

If we go all-in and someone calls us - we made the best decision there is.

All-in after the flop, when we have evidence that we are beat is completely different thing. General rule should apply - don't lose whole stack with just one pair. If the stacks are big and we suspect a set we should at least try to make the pot small.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

The main one is actually in the way, this question is written. It is the assumption, that if we have AA, we are supposed to always win. This causes people to take AA to far postflop and lose to much, when someone did in fact crack them. The other general mistake is slowplaying them to much preflop and on the flop. Most of the time AA wont improve, and this mean, the relative strength of the hand goes down, as more cards are dealt. It is therefore almost always better to get the money in early rather than late, when perhaps we are actually beat.

Good response. We should also take implied odds and stack sizes into account. If you have a big stack and represent AA, some players will take a shot for a big payoff. Whereas when you're short stacked, shoving it on AA is rarely a bad idea.

Would you agree?

"Why to do lose pocket AA?" Without well,
"Why to do lose Set of pocket AA?" Could you question?

That and such one may not win.

Originally Posted by Collin Moshman

It's important to distinguish between times we lose and played correctly, versus times we lose and made a mistake.
AA vs KK pre-flop: We still lose ~ 20% of the time. We won long-term EV and shouldn't worry because there's nothing we could do different.

Understanding what constitutes a mistake before making a play is a study in probability.
When playing different MTT buy-ins, long-term EV gets longer if you lose the bigger games disproportionately due to variance. Making the correct play means appreciating the competition relative to the buy-in ..so I calculate the advantage I have in the cards then I estimate the probable response from everyone at the table (at least 30 more things to consider). At this point, I will then commit to bet sizing that will create the largest pot at the least cost with the expectation of eliminating smaller EV's like set miners ( EV ~35%) but I welcome the flush chasers, gut shooters and the KK's, QQ's and I would expect that my winning hand EV would be ~57-63% by the time I need to swim the river. This is what I was trying to get at in my prior post, a provably optimal acceptable risk..misstakke freee.

Originally Posted by ohshootmybad

this may be an agree to disagree type of reply.

i think many players understand why they might lose with aces, but what about the times when they win with aces, but also lose a ton of value by playing it too cautiously?

an example of this would be players that are result oriented and that affects how they play their hands in the future. for example, lets say a player loses with aces 3x in a row against an opponent that chased a flush and hit on the river. then, the 4th time they get aces, they decided to bet all-in on the flop because they think "its better to win a small pot with aces than to lose a big pot against a flush chaser".

while they, technically, did win with aces, they're also giving up a lot value. lets look at 2 examples:

player 1 hates to lose with aces and would rather win a small pot than lose a big one, so they go all-in on the flop to take the pot down. lets say this works out 100% of the time and player 1 takes down a 9.5 bb pot on the flop (after a 4x raise and call). for simplicity, lets say 1 bb = $1

after 100x, player 1 makes 950 bbs or $950 with their aces. not too bad, right?

player 2 wants to get max value for their aces and understands that while they will lose sometimes, they win a lot more in the long run. for this example, we'll say villain has 35% to hit a winning hand on the turn or river. to keep things simple, we'll say player 2 is risking 100 bbs to win a 200 bb pot with 65% equity to win.

ev = [200*.65] - [100*35]
ev = 130 - 35
ev = 95 bbs

player 2 is making $95 on average, which is 10x the $9.50 what player 1 is making, even though player 2 is losing 35/100 times with aces.

so, which player is really winning in the long term?

Excellent analysis, Thanks!

Knowing that we will always depend largely on the flop, there will be two ways to play AA ..... One is going to be raising preflop to avoid big losses against mediocre hands. The other will be to play slow and attract more players, which if successful will give us more profits as well as more risks. In short, I have won and lost playing both ways.What option will depend on?From the game mode, cash or mtt, the type of rivals and my number of chips.Good hands.

Originally Posted by DanyDiablo

Knowing that we will always depend largely on the flop, there will be two ways to play AA ..... One is going to be raising preflop to avoid big losses against mediocre hands. The other will be to play slow and attract more players, which if successful will give us more profits as well as more risks. In short, I have won and lost playing both ways.What option will depend on?From the game mode, cash or mtt, the type of rivals and my number of chips.Good hands.

I think the correct way would be to do Reise Preflop, and if you're shortstack allin

Was it correctly played? (Pocket Aces)

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/824FtVmfd


PokerStars Hand #217312272913: Tournament #2960928078, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2020/08/10 14:09:48 CT [2020/08/10 15:09:48 ET]
Table '2960928078 7' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: cris1964 (3000 in chips)
Seat 2: mtl mile end (2800 in chips)
Seat 3: Eduado715 (2980 in chips)
Seat 4: alaercio (2860 in chips)
Seat 5: jfofla (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: OSCARHUKA (3100 in chips)
Seat 7: zedolixo636 (2860 in chips)
Seat 8: LegagyCC (4740 in chips)
Seat 9: yakosirios (3100 in chips)
LegagyCC: posts small blind 10
yakosirios: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to LegagyCC [Ah As]
cris1964: folds
mtl mile end: folds
Eduado715: folds
alaercio: folds
jfofla: calls 20
OSCARHUKA: calls 20
zedolixo636: calls 20
LegagyCC: raises 180 to 200
yakosirios: folds
jfofla: folds
OSCARHUKA: folds
zedolixo636: calls 180
*** FLOP *** [Ac 7s 6h]
LegagyCC: checks
zedolixo636: checks
*** TURN *** [Ac 7s 6h] [Td]
LegagyCC: bets 460
zedolixo636: calls 460
*** RIVER *** [Ac 7s 6h Td] 5♣
LegagyCC: bets 880
zedolixo636: calls 880
*** SHOW DOWN ***
LegagyCC: shows [Ah As] (three of a kind, Aces)
zedolixo636: mucks hand
LegagyCC collected 3140 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3140 | Rake 0
Board [Ac 7s 6h Td 5c]
Seat 1: cris1964 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: mtl mile end folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Eduado715 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: alaercio folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: jfofla folded before Flop
Seat 6: OSCARHUKA folded before Flop
Seat 7: zedolixo636 (button) mucked [6s 8h]
Seat 8: LegagyCC (small blind) showed [Ah As] and won (3140) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 9: yakosirios (big blind) folded before Flop

I do not like getting pocket A's when UTG. Usually when you raise in this spot, you get several callers and are now playing OOP. Proceed cautiously as if the flop is coordinated, then it is normally a check fold for me. This is normally a win a small pot and lose a big pot situation (reverse implied odds).

Originally Posted by eberetta1

Not raising pre-flop when you have pocket Aces. Then the big blind with two mediocre cards can get 2 pair on the flop because we did not raise.

I like to slow play it though but this could happen however I still think the main reason is "bad luck" or "bad beats"

Originally Posted by Dhendrixon

I do not like getting pocket A's when UTG. Usually when you raise in this spot, you get several callers and are now playing OOP. Proceed cautiously as if the flop is coordinated, then it is normally a check fold for me. This is normally a win a small pot and lose a big pot situation (reverse implied odds).

UTG Difficult position, should be played aggressively to avoid risks

Originally Posted by owler

I like to slow play it though but this could happen however I still think the main reason is "bad luck" or "bad beats"

Playing slowplay is a mistake in my opinion, AA lose value when many players play a hand

Originally Posted by Edison A

UTG Difficult position, should be played aggressively to avoid risks

When you raise UTG and get three or more callers, nothing more aggressive you can do about it.

Originally Posted by Edison A

Playing slowplay is a mistake in my opinion, AA lose value when many players play a hand

Generally, you may be right but as the concept of bluffing in poker is changing slow playing aces have it's time & place for me I would like to catch a bluffer for a big pot than win a small pot for playing it aggressively.
Thanks, for clarifying that though.

I share this Interesting hand, it was yesterday at the Cardschat freeroll at pokerstars with Pocket Aces
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/524FyQStU

Originally Posted by rigor mortis

Regardless of position, you need to raise and raise big or go all in. Why give other players a chance to better their hand?

If you jam them under the gun into a table with aggressive players, you are taking their play away to win and will 1.5 bb most of the time. If you are at a passive table full of calling stations then I can see it. But, why wait for the best starting hand and try to win 1.5 bb with it, when villains are willing to throw extra dead money into the pot and expose themselves to a huge reraise. If I know that a small raise or a limp is almost always going to see a raise behind me, I'll min raise, 4-bet way over the top, or limp 3 bet way over the top.
This also puts monster hands in my early position limps and small raises for the GTO guys. The worst case is that there is no aggression behind and we see a flop cheap multiway with aces. Then it's a matter of board textures. You can fold for a loss of 1 bb or whatever your small raise was. And occasionally you will see a flop like A J J with a flush draw. If villains have a piece of that board and have a hard time putting you on aces, you could scoop a monster.

Imo the reason why some people play these hands especially poorly is a combination of the following three factors

1. Results oriented thinking rather than thinking about expected value (a poor grasp of variance). For example if you're playing at a passive tabel and limp AA utg preflop 'to trap', someone wakes up with KK, reraises and you play for stacks. That it happened to work out this time doesn't mean it's the optimal decision. Yes obviously limping Aces is +EV, but look at the decision rather than the result when doing hand reviews. In this case a raise is obviously the way to go since you're at a passive table and would lead to a higher EV. Always try to think in terms of expected value rather than results.

2. Thinking in absolute hand strength rather than equity and thus not being able to let go of Aces in some spots.

3. Lastly a psychological one. Entitlement. In poker there's no room for your ego. Many players feel like they are entitled to win with aces, and thus are unable to fold them. It's so important to understand that if you have 70% equity preflop, this does not mean you will win everytime. Logically this is very easy to understand, however emotionally it feels a bit different for some. No need to feel entitled, sometimes you will lose with aces. When it's a good fold it's a good fold and you save yourself a lot of money.

Let's look at another example here, the danger of making a minireise at the final table

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/024FBGMtS



PokerStars Home Game Hand #217412807272: {CardsChat League B} Tournament #2978196334, 17000+3000 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (400/800) - 2020/08/13 17:18:16 CT [2020/08/13 18:18:16 ET]
Table '2978196334 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: migesan (32885 in chips)
Seat 3: rawbad (10195 in chips)
Seat 4: AllenKll2 (21131 in chips)
Seat 5: advoghado (13928 in chips)
Seat 7: tuku222 (11861 in chips)
migesan: posts the ante 100
rawbad: posts the ante 100
AllenKll2: posts the ante 100
advoghado: posts the ante 100
tuku222: posts the ante 100
advoghado: posts small blind 400
tuku222: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
migesan: raises 800 to 1600
rawbad: folds
AllenKll2: folds
advoghado: folds
tuku222: calls 800
*** FLOP *** [2d Kh 7d]
advoghado said, "ty"
tuku222: checks
migesan: bets 2050
tuku222: raises 8111 to 10161 and is all-in
migesan: calls 8111
*** TURN *** [2d Kh 7d] 6♣
*** RIVER *** [2d Kh 7d 6c] 5♥
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tuku222: shows [2s 2c] (three of a kind, Deuces)
migesan: shows [Ah Ac] (a pair of Aces)
tuku222 collected 24422 from pot
migesan said, "nh"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 24422 | Rake 0
Board [2d Kh 7d 6c 5h]
Seat 2: migesan showed [Ah Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: rawbad folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: AllenKll2 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: advoghado (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: tuku222 (big blind) showed [2s 2c] and won (24422) with three of a kind, Deuces

Any other common mistakes why AA Pokets lose?

ITS always strānge if i dont raize preflop I lose țo draws if a play with raise i loose With 3 Off a kind.

play them weak preflop, sometimes that to avoid running the rivals and passing the small blind or big blind with 8.2 ends up connecting us with double pairs or three of a kind, so it is better to play them aggressive so only those with good cards enter and If everyone retires, no way, but it is worse to play like that and give the money away

Whenever I go all in preflop online with pocket a's I always get a bad beat and lose to a lower pocket pair that will end up hitting trips on the flop.

Originally Posted by eberetta1

Not raising pre-flop when you have pocket Aces. Then the big blind with two mediocre cards can get 2 pair on the flop because we did not raise.

I totally agree.
Slow playing can be an option when down to 3-4 players at a final table, a trap would likely pay off handsomely, but in early stages it is best to put in a decent raise.
Just my humble opinion. Still trying to improve and learn every day.