The C-Bet: What, When, Why?

ObbleeXY

ObbleeXY

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OK, so I've been a bit quiet recently...mostly because I'm tired of the "what is your favourite starting hand?| and really tired of "is poker skill or luck?" Nothing interesting to talk about.

But recently I've been trying to pay attention to C-Bets, Bet-sizing, board texture, etc.

I think a lot of people don't really think about their C-Bet all that much, whilst others are very specific about how they play.

Consider the following: Full ring. Tourney. Deep stacked. Early game. $5.50 entry. 200 players max.
UTG opens with 1BB.
Folds around to BTN who raises to 3.5BB.
SB folds.
BB Calls.
UTG Calls.

Flop is 4c, Td, As (rainbow, backdoor nut straight draw potential)

Now -- I have not told you about ANY of the hole cards. That is purposeful.

Post-Flop...
UTG checks, given his position and the fact he was raised.

BTN to act....
Now here is where my question is.

What does the following activity make you think about the strength/range of BTN's holding?

if The guy on the button...
a) Checks?
b) Min C-Bet?
c) 33% Pot C-Bet?
d) 50% Pot C-Bet?
e) Pot-sized Bet?
f) Shove?

Let's say, in addition, you have a HUD which gives the following stats for the player on the BTN:
VP - 22
PFR - 20
CB- 25

Let's discuss the ranges expected to be held by someone and what YOU think each bet size is trying to represent.

Are there sizings here where we automatically assume BTN is betting for value?
Are there sizings here where we think BTN is on a bluff?

There are obviously lots of other unkowns here. If you need to know some...set a value yourself and then draw your conclusions and let us know...

What sort of C-betting strategies are out there and what other factors should we be considering?

When should I be thinking of C-Betting Big vs C-Betting small?

Why C-Bet at all if I miss the flop?

Pick a question from above and please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks for your consideration.

Cheers,
ObbleeXY
 
F

feisas7991

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A. D, E, F seems strong to me.
we shouldnt expect many

Why C-Bet at all if I miss the flop?

cb on that texture will be reasonable strong, would basically call any other pair than Ace only once and fold to a bet on the turn vs bet again
Also ppl are way too tight isoing limps, so we can give him a strong range with high degree of certainty
 
Poker_Mike

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Always Cbet or Never Cbet

OK, so I've been a bit quiet recently...mostly because I'm tired of the "what is your favourite starting hand?| and really tired of "is poker skill or luck?" Nothing interesting to talk about.

But recently I've been trying to pay attention to C-Bets, Bet-sizing, board texture, etc.

I think a lot of people don't really think about their C-Bet all that much, whilst others are very specific about how they play.

Consider the following: Full ring. Tourney. Deep stacked. Early game. $5.50 entry. 200 players max.
UTG opens with 1BB.
Folds around to BTN who raises to 3.5BB.
SB folds.
BB Calls.
UTG Calls.

Flop is 4c, Td, As (rainbow, backdoor nut straight draw potential)

Now -- I have not told you about ANY of the hole cards. That is purposeful.

Post-Flop...
UTG checks, given his position and the fact he was raised.

BTN to act....
Now here is where my question is.

What does the following activity make you think about the strength/range of BTN's holding?

if The guy on the button...
a) Checks?
b) Min C-Bet?
c) 33% Pot C-Bet?
d) 50% Pot C-Bet?
e) Pot-sized Bet?
f) Shove?

Let's say, in addition, you have a HUD which gives the following stats for the player on the BTN:
VP - 22
PFR - 20
CB- 25

Let's discuss the ranges expected to be held by someone and what YOU think each bet size is trying to represent.

Are there sizings here where we automatically assume BTN is betting for value?
Are there sizings here where we think BTN is on a bluff?

There are obviously lots of other unkowns here. If you need to know some...set a value yourself and then draw your conclusions and let us know...

What sort of C-betting strategies are out there and what other factors should we be considering?

When should I be thinking of C-Betting Big vs C-Betting small?

Why C-Bet at all if I miss the flop?

Pick a question from above and please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks for your consideration.

Cheers,
ObbleeXY

These are great questions and I like the way you are deconstructing the way the hand plays out.


I would say A and C seem strong to me - E and F seem like the button is trying to buy the pot.

For example consider the strongest situation - the button has pocket AA - so he flopped top set while in position - now how would you expect the button to behave on a dry flop? I am back to A and C (mostly). What could any other player have in their hand to substantiate a call?

I can do the same thing with the BB and UTG - how would you expect them to behave with top set - on a dry flop - playing passively OOP?
----------------------------------------------------

Why C-Bet at all if I miss the flop?

Because it is very possible that the other player(s) has missed the flop also. Often the first bet into the pot will take it in passive situations, where nobody is interested in the pot.

If you only C-Bet when you hit the flop then your opponents can notice that - you only bet when you have it.

In my play I try to always C-bet - I am strong and I am still strong! Charge them for all draws!!

Good luck !
 
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Sagory

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What does the following activity make you think about the strength/range of BTN's holding?

if The guy on the button...
a) Checks?
b) Min C-Bet?
c) 33% Pot C-Bet?
d) 50% Pot C-Bet?
e) Pot-sized Bet?
f) Shove?

a) could be any
b) want to steal the pot, maybe min pair
c) mid pair
d) top pair or bluffing
e) top pair
f) idiot (sorry)
 
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fundiver199

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First of all a C-bet of 25% is extremely low, and when the player type is a LAG (VPIP 22 / PFR 20) I would assume, that its incorrect data based on a small sample. Most likely he got 4 chances to C-bet and did it once, and this does not really tell us anything yet. AT4 rainbow is a dry board, which favour BTNs range, and I would expect a good player to C-bet very wide maybe even 100% of his range and for a small sizing. Its not nessesary to go very large on this board go give hands like a gutshot draw a bad price to continue. Its a way ahead way behind kind of board, where the nuts will rarely change on later streets.

a) Checks? - maybe he has a hand like A5, KK or QQ and wants to play for potcontrol
b) Min C-Bet? - that would be really weird for a LAG - only fish makes undersized bets
c) 33% Pot C-Bet? - solid player with a wide range. This is pretty much the GTO sizing
d) 50% Pot C-Bet? - solid player wanting to go a bit larger against a fishy limper
e) Pot-sized Bet? - that would also be a weird move for a LAG - pot bets are mostly used by fish
f) Shove? - Even weirder move, since the board is so dry and static
 
ObbleeXY

ObbleeXY

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First of all a C-bet of 25% is extremely low, and when the player type is a LAG (VPIP 22 / PFR 20) I would assume, that its incorrect data based on a small sample. Most likely he got 4 chances to C-bet and did it once, and this does not really tell us anything yet. AT4 rainbow is a dry board, which favour BTNs range, and I would expect a good player to C-bet very wide maybe even 100% of his range and for a small sizing. Its not nessesary to go very large on this board go give hands like a gutshot draw a bad price to continue. Its a way ahead way behind kind of board, where the nuts will rarely change on later streets.

a) Checks? - maybe he has a hand like A5, KK or QQ and wants to play for potcontrol
b) Min C-Bet? - that would be really weird for a LAG - only fish makes undersized bets
c) 33% Pot C-Bet? - solid player with a wide range. This is pretty much the GTO sizing
d) 50% Pot C-Bet? - solid player wanting to go a bit larger against a fishy limper
e) Pot-sized Bet? - that would also be a weird move for a LAG - pot bets are mostly used by fish
f) Shove? - Even weirder move, since the board is so dry and static

Thanks for the insight, Fundiver!


Interesting how there are so many 1BB CBettors out there. I'm always confused by the 1BB bet as I have no idea what it is supposed to mean, therefore no idea how to react. Guess I just ignore the min raise C-Bets then.


Also interesting that you see a pot-sized bet as fishy. There are a number of pros out there today that support a pot-size bet for top pair, top kicker sort of hand. Generally, if my "top pair" is Jacks or lower, I like to take the pot down and not see turn/river. Stars always seems to turn/River Ace and/or King a lot.

The "GTO" option is interesting insofar as it builds the pot, but also maintains pot control without leaking chips...but it isn't much of a deterrent for seeing future streets.

I quite like the 50% pot bet which may mean I take the pot down with less value, but it does correspondingly reduce the risk of crappy hands continuing and getting lucky. In a way, this is insurance so that on balance, I'll be covered by the losses.

Thanks for your replies!

Cheers,
JT
 
fletchdad

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OK, so I've been a bit quiet recently...mostly because I'm tired of the "what is your favourite starting hand?| and really tired of "is poker skill or luck?" Nothing interesting to talk about.

But recently I've been trying to pay attention to C-Bets, Bet-sizing, board texture, etc.

I think a lot of people don't really think about their C-Bet all that much, whilst others are very specific about how they play.

Consider the following: Full ring. Tourney. Deep stacked. Early game. $5.50 entry. 200 players max.
UTG opens with 1BB.
Folds around to BTN who raises to 3.5BB.
SB folds.
BB Calls.
UTG Calls.

Flop is 4c, Td, As (rainbow, backdoor nut straight draw potential)

Now -- I have not told you about ANY of the hole cards. That is purposeful.

Post-Flop...
UTG checks, given his position and the fact he was raised.

BTN to act....
Now here is where my question is.

What does the following activity make you think about the strength/range of BTN's holding?

if The guy on the button...
a) Checks?
b) Min C-Bet?
c) 33% Pot C-Bet?
d) 50% Pot C-Bet?
e) Pot-sized Bet?
f) Shove?

Let's say, in addition, you have a HUD which gives the following stats for the player on the BTN:
VP - 22
PFR - 20
CB- 25

Let's discuss the ranges expected to be held by someone and what YOU think each bet size is trying to represent.

Are there sizings here where we automatically assume BTN is betting for value?
Are there sizings here where we think BTN is on a bluff?

There are obviously lots of other unkowns here. If you need to know some...set a value yourself and then draw your conclusions and let us know...

What sort of C-betting strategies are out there and what other factors should we be considering?

When should I be thinking of C-Betting Big vs C-Betting small?

Why C-Bet at all if I miss the flop?

Pick a question from above and please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks for your consideration.

Cheers,
ObbleeXY


I dont get it.

Opens for 1 BB? You either call (which is 2 BB maybe plus ante) or you raise. You CANT open a tourney from UTG with 1 BB..?? I think something else but....

BTN raise 3.5BB? sure. UTG calls. OK...

Flop 4, 10, A RB, OK.

WHY in the world would UTG check on this flop? In this situation?

UTG should not be playing poker.....

Sorry......
 
H

Hermus

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What sort of C-betting strategies are out there and what other factors should we be considering?

c-betting is not really any different from other forms of betting. You're still trying to get money in the pot with your value hands, and trying to get your opponent to fold with your bluffs.

Things to consider when c-betting are:
  • How does my range connect with this board
  • How does villain's range connect with this board
  • Are there draws I want to tax
  • How do I feel about getting (check)raised
Keep in mind, that the pre-flop raiser is representing the stronger range. If you connect well and villain connects poorly, you can c-bet wider (villain is folding more). If the board is very wet you check back more marginal and junk, but c-bet with a larger sizing to tax draws. If you flopped a marginal holding (e.g. TPBK, middle pair, top pair on a monotone board) that you have to let go against a raise, but has some showdown value checking back is often better than c-betting.
 
ObbleeXY

ObbleeXY

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Contribute or remain silent

I dont get it.

Opens for 1 BB? You either call (which is 2 BB maybe plus ante) or you raise. You CANT open a tourney from UTG with 1 BB..?? I think something else but....

BTN raise 3.5BB? sure. UTG calls. OK...

Flop 4, 10, A RB, OK.

WHY in the world would UTG check on this flop? In this situation?

UTG should not be playing poker.....

Sorry......

If you don't get it, why bother posting and being so negative?

The point is, I want to understand how others evaluate certain actions.
Great you think a 1BB call/limp shouldn't be described as Opening the betting. That is splitting hairs however, rather than truly contributing to the conversation...

You comment that the limper shouldn't be playing. That is just silly. It may not be YOUR style, but there are all sorts out there. There isn't a proscribed action for all situations. And if there was, following it exclusively would make you predictable and you could never beat the bots. Clearly not reality.

So -- it would be great if you could reply, once you've wrapped your head around the scenarios. Clearly you don't like the limp, although you've provided no reason.

What about the other four scenarios?

Thanks,
ObbleeXY
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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If you don't get it, why bother posting and being so negative?

The point is, I want to understand how others evaluate certain actions.
Great you think a 1BB call/limp shouldn't be described as Opening the betting. That is splitting hairs however, rather than truly contributing to the conversation...

You comment that the limper shouldn't be playing. That is just silly. It may not be YOUR style, but there are all sorts out there. There isn't a proscribed action for all situations. And if there was, following it exclusively would make you predictable and you could never beat the bots. Clearly not reality.

So -- it would be great if you could reply, once you've wrapped your head around the scenarios. Clearly you don't like the limp, although you've provided no reason.

What about the other four scenarios?

Thanks,
ObbleeXY



What I didnt get is how you open UTG for 1bb?? I guess I did not make that clear enough. You always have to open with the BB, and 1bb as the BB is something I have never seen, Please let me know where this format is allowed.

My negativity about the play is my opinion. Why would anyone check in this spot is beyond me. Sorry if you find that negative. It is simply bad poker IMHO.

I dont ever like limping UTG, especially deep stacked. This is just weak poker unless you have a compelling reason WHY he limped. To limp/raise could be a reason, but limp/call, sorry. I would immediately flag this player as a fish. Read any basic poker book, it will cover this in enough detail. So I dont like the limp because it seems to have been done with no thought process of why, and playing "just cause" is simply bad poker. I hope this clears that up.

I made my comment about "shouldn't be playing poker" cause his entire line is weak and fishy. I am speaking about UTG. However, he should be playing poker, cause it looks like he acts without a plan. That is actually very good for the poker community as a whole. But his entire line sucks, unless you can clue me in on some deeper strategy that is not apparent.

I am sorry. I enjoy commenting on hands, but I don't want to consider 7 different scenarios, then add some random HUD stats to each. BTN will act less on his card strength (IMHO) and more around UTG's weak play. IMO, UTG play is so bad that it negates wondering about BTN holding, as if BTN has been paying attention, they will be playing the player as much, if not more, than their own cards.

I find the play horrendously bad, and if you post a hand, you are gonna have to be ready for some people to take issue with the play.

I am not trying to shit on your thread, and c-betting is a very legitimate and important topic. But some play does not animate me to consider the range of a player, and the play from UTG looks like an ATC player to me, which makes sensible ranging a waste of time.

My opinion, thats all.
 
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ObbleeXY

ObbleeXY

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I see the confusion.

I use the term BB to represent the Positino sitting in Big Blind, but I also use BB to refer to the bet size. 3BB equals 3* the default bet paid by the big blind. It is not referring to additional positions or some weird format.

If the SB pays 25 and the BB pays 50. When I bet 150, I call it 3BB. I don't talk in chip sizes. I think it is fairly common to speak in ratios of, or multiples, of the BB

But I don't refer to the person sitting in either the SB or the BB as the opener. But fairplay, calling the min bet is not really opening...But again...it is splitting hairs and derailing the topic. If you want a topic that suits YOUR needs then create one.

Seriously dude, just move on. If you don't want to address how the different scenarios result in different conclusions, walk on. That is what I want to talk about -- as it is my thread aftert all. I find it more interesting than "is poker luck or skill?" type questions.

Your comments are not conducive to progressing the topic, so please show off your greatness elsewhere.

In the meantime, maybe go look up Wheaton's Law...
 
fletchdad

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I see the confusion.

I use the term BB to represent the Positino sitting in Big Blind, but I also use BB to refer to the bet size. 3BB equals 3* the default bet paid by the big blind. It is not referring to additional positions or some weird format.

If the SB pays 25 and the BB pays 50. When I bet 150, I call it 3BB. I don't talk in chip sizes. I think it is fairly common to speak in ratios of, or multiples, of the BB

But I don't refer to the person sitting in either the SB or the BB as the opener. But fairplay, calling the min bet is not really opening...But again...it is splitting hairs and derailing the topic. If you want a topic that suits YOUR needs then create one.

Seriously dude, just move on. If you don't want to address how the different scenarios result in different conclusions, walk on. That is what I want to talk about -- as it is my thread aftert all. I find it more interesting than "is poker luck or skill?" type questions.

Your comments are not conducive to progressing the topic, so please show off your greatness elsewhere.

In the meantime, maybe go look up Wheaton's Law...



Thank you for letting me know what I can post and what not....

Move on? Absolutely. I actually posted my thoughts, and if you cant handle people posting their thoughts, perhaps you should not post in forums.

I thought this was a mature and adult forum, where discussion, and disagreement, can happen,. If that is too much for your thin skin, fine. Maybe you were UTG and dont like me saying your line sucked.

I am not trying to be a dick, I just think the play sucked. As to many scenarios, well, after that fishy play, I dont see the need for multi-level thinking. It only works, after all, against players that also have multi-level thoughts. And UTG played without thought. Unless, as I already asked, you can clarify the thought process behind a limp/ call and a check OTF.

And most players understand why a (serious) poker forum member would take issue at the comment "xxx opened for 1 bb". Uhh, yea, but whatever Wheaton.
 
Vilgeoforc

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25% is a small percentage of continuation bets. So I think the button hit an ace or ten, and that bet is for value. Everything changes if the continuation bet percentage is 60%. The flop is dry and most players will continue to bet an ace to win the pot here and now.
 
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Recreationalplayer

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Million Dollar question.
I consider following factors while making a decision to C-bet
> Range advantage
> Position advantage
> Hand Strength
> equity

Bet more often when the factors are in my favour and less often otherwise.
 
Noroma

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Without having read the rest of your post after the questions you posed, my answers are the following:

strength/range of BTN's holding?:
Any reasonable player, I think the following:
a) Checks?
He could be checking with all JJ - KK and smaller pocket pairs. And once in a while a few really strong hands such as 10s and most Aces. These kinds of hands with showdown value should be calling or raising on the turn on most cards.

b) Min C-Bet? 1 bb into a 8.5bb pot... I don't see any hands that would do this. Maybe some weird sets, where you try to induce a bluff?

c) 33% Pot C-Bet? Pretty much his whole range would do this. All top pairs. All BD's, Gutshots, sets. I think most second pairs with weak kicker should also, since many overcards can fall which favours UTG.

d) 50% Pot C-Bet? What i said for the 33 %, but where someone has this tendency instead. For someone with the 33 % raising tendency, then a 50 % pot raise would include some sets lower than aces.

e) Pot-sized Bet? If he hit 10s, or 4s, A10, and perhaps AK once in a while, and then also 1 or 2 combos of complete misses such as low suited connectors and low gappers. But this is not a line I think many would take.


f) Shove? Eh, maybe 4's, 10's and A4, A10. Don't see this happening though.





And for all ranges with bd equity such as suited connectors, then based on turn cards we would fire a second barrel for 2/3 pot just like we would also fire with any strong holdings.
 
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