C-Bet and double barrel

F

Fida

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As the preflop raiser, when should we C-Bet?

If we get called, when should we double barrel?

I know there are many parameters to take into account, but what would be the general rule?
 
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eetenor

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As the preflop raiser, when should we C-Bet?

If we get called, when should we double barrel?

I know there are many parameters to take into account, but what would be the general rule?



Thank you for posting.

The general rule for c-bet and turn barrel is: our range is stronger than the villain's range.

Example C bet we open 2.2 bb's in Mid position- big blind calls us

flop 753 who has range advantage here?

Flop K87 who has the range advantage here?

double barrel turn

753A range advantage change ?

K87A range advantage change?

Hope this helps
:):)
 
L

Lucky River

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it all depends on the position we are playing against, and we must play from the cards that fell on the flop.
 
F

Fida

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Thank you for posting.

The general rule for c-bet and turn barrel is: our range is stronger than the villain's range.

Example C bet we open 2.2 bb's in Mid position- big blind calls us

flop 753 who has range advantage here?

Flop K87 who has the range advantage here?

double barrel turn

753A range advantage change ?

K87A range advantage change?

Hope this helps
:):)

It helps. Thank you :)

I guess it depends on your stack size too? I mean, should I C-Bet/double barrel when I am shorted stacked, knowing that it will impact my stack significantly if I get called and lose.

Let's say I sit on 20BB. I have AQ offsuit on the button. I raise 3x.

Everyone folds, except the small blind who calls (he has 25BB).

Flop K69 rainbow. I have range advantage, right? He checks. So i C-Bet, let's say 4 BB.

Turn J. He checks again. I still have range advantage, right? Should I double barrel here? What size?
 
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eetenor

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It helps. Thank you :)

I guess it depends on your stack size too? I mean, should I C-Bet/double barrel when I am shorted stacked, knowing that it will impact my stack significantly if I get called and lose.

Let's say I sit on 20BB. I have AQ offsuit on the button. I raise 3x.

Everyone folds, except the small blind who calls (he has 25BB).

Flop K69 rainbow. I have range advantage, right? He checks. So i C-Bet, let's say 4 BB.

Turn J. He checks again. I still have range advantage, right? Should I double barrel here? What size?

Thank you for responding.

Great example here of range defining.

A standard SB range has more high cards in it due to positional disadvantage. Therefore the SB will hit this K a lot. They will also just call with 66 -depending on villain tendencies they may call 99 but mostly raise that hand preflop

Raising 3bb also narrows the SB range further. This is of course if the villains play well.

When we bet 4BB on the flop the villain should fold all their nothing hands and call with made hands Kx Q9 J9 JJ TT etc so we narrow the SB range even further with this sizing.

On the turn J our range advantage is much smaller because we still have all our flop bluffs and the villain now has a nut advantage versus our actual hand as they may have all the turned 2 pair hands and the sets.

Ranges flow based on cards and betting patterns.
If the player is skilled your 4bb flop bet on that board suggests to them you do not have KK 99 66 or even AA or AK. The villain may be thinking why bet so large on a board that is so dry? Further reducing our range advantage on the turn.

So we need to adjust our ranges based on what the villain is thinking we have, not just what we could have. This is because when we are bluffing the villain needs to THINK we can have the nuts. That is the true key to range play.

Their are other factors involved in what your action on the turn should be but I want to stay focused on how to adapt your ranges.
If you want to ask more questions based on this example I will gladly respond

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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F

Fida

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Thank you for responding.

Great example here of range defining.

A standard SB range has more high cards in it due to positional disadvantage. Therefore the SB will hit this K a lot. They will also just call with 66 -depending on villain tendencies they may call 99 but mostly raise that hand preflop

Raising 3bb also narrows the SB range further. This is of course if the villains play well.

When we bet 4BB on the flop the villain should fold all their nothing hands and call with made hands Kx Q9 J9 JJ TT etc so we narrow the SB range even further with this sizing.

On the turn J our range advantage is much smaller because we still have all our flop bluffs and the villain now has a nut advantage versus our actual hand as they may have all the turned 2 pair hands and the sets.

Ranges flow based on cards and betting patterns.
If the player is skilled your 4bb flop bet on that board suggests to them you do not have KK 99 66 or even AA or AK. The villain may be thinking why bet so large on a board that is so dry? Further reducing our range advantage on the turn.

So we need to adjust our ranges based on what the villain is thinking we have, not just what we could have. This is because when we are bluffing the villain needs to THINK we can have the nuts. That is the true key to range play.

Their are other factors involved in what your action on the turn should be but I want to stay focused on how to adapt your ranges.
If you want to ask more questions based on this example I will gladly respond

Hope this helps
:):)

I guess I have to study ranges more, cause I got all the range advantages wrong in my example.

Anyway, thanks a lot! Your answers really help. Can I private message you when I have hands to discuss or questions to ask?
 
Evan Jarvis

Evan Jarvis

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As the preflop raiser, when should we C-Bet?

If we get called, when should we double barrel?

I know there are many parameters to take into account, but what would be the general rule?


The main thing to consider if how likely your opponent is to have a pair or better...
And also how loose they are willing to call on the flop (some players will call a bet with overcards, some with just a backdoor draw)

On boards that don't have a lot of high cards you are usually good to make a bet,
On boards with 2 or 3 high cards T,J,Q,K,A you want something solid card wise to bet.

Generally 2 barreling is best when you have some sort of draw (8 outs or more) and the more outs yo have the better.

Honestly, because there is so much to it it's really worth getting a complete guide with a comprehensive strategy. This is a great playlist for building the foundation http://gripsed.com/win (check out the how to play flop and how to play turn videos)

And if you'd like to learn from some of the best in the fastest way possible pokercoaching premium is really awesome, and has lots of interactive quizzes to help integrate the theory.

Here's a link for the best price too and some bonus courses
http://pokercoachingoffer.com

Good luck and Happy stackin Fida!
 
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fundiver199

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As Evan Jarvis say, so much goes into C-betting flop and turn, that it has material for entire training videos. Of which many already exists. Other than those mentioned by Evan Jarvis, you can also check out the 30 day CC course under "poker strategy". It has sections about C-betting and barreling as well. If I am to point out some general mistakes, that a lot of players make, they would include:

1) C-betting flop to much in multiway pots.
2) C-betting flop to much when someone with position cold called our open raise.
3) Not barreling enough turns and rivers.
4) C-betting flop with hands that are to in between.

Point number 1) should be fairly obvious. The more players, we need to get through, the less chance that everyone have missed and are willing to fold.

Point number 2) is perhaps less obvious, but it boils down to the fact, that being out of position is bad. Also when someone cold call us, they should have a fairly strong range, so we dont have the same kind of range advantage, as we do against big blind especially. How many times have you not fired that C-bet out of position, gotten called and then been there on the turn with a nothing hand and no real plan other than to check and fold.

Point number 3) is about the fact, that a lot of players these days have picked up on the fact, that the flop C-bet is coming a lot, but a turn bet usually means business. And if we fall into this pattern, we are simply to easy to play against.

Point number 4) I am going to illustrate with a recent hand history posted here on Cardschat:

PokerStars - 35/70 Ante 9 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 2,844
MP+1: 2,761
CO: 2,795
Hero (BTN): 3,054
SB: 5,740
BB: 4,621
UTG: 2,567
UTG+1: 2,618

8 players post ante of 9, SB posts SB 35, BB posts BB 70

Pre Flop: (pot: 177) Hero has K J

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 170, SB calls 135, BB calls 100

Flop: (582, 3 players) J A 5

If Hero bet here, he is getting all better hands to call and most worse hands to fold, which is obviously not, what we want. He also dont get much protection, because no turn cards are really bad for him. So for me this is a prime example of a hand, where we should just check back and look to see, what happen on the turn. Instead Hero made the C-bet, got called by both players, and then he got bailed out by binking a K on the turn giving him two pair. But we dont want to rely on that kind of luck to save us from losing chips on bad C-bets :)
 
F

Fida

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The main thing to consider if how likely your opponent is to have a pair or better...
And also how loose they are willing to call on the flop (some players will call a bet with overcards, some with just a backdoor draw)

On boards that don't have a lot of high cards you are usually good to make a bet,
On boards with 2 or 3 high cards T,J,Q,K,A you want something solid card wise to bet.

Generally 2 barreling is best when you have some sort of draw (8 outs or more) and the more outs yo have the better.

Honestly, because there is so much to it it's really worth getting a complete guide with a comprehensive strategy. This is a great playlist for building the foundation http://gripsed.com/win (check out the how to play flop and how to play turn videos)

And if you'd like to learn from some of the best in the fastest way possible pokercoaching premium is really awesome, and has lots of interactive quizzes to help integrate the theory.

Here's a link for the best price too and some bonus courses
http://pokercoachingoffer.com

Good luck and Happy stackin Fida!

Thanks for the reply!

Immediately suscribed to your YouTube channel. Great contents, my man :D

As Evan Jarvis say, so much goes into C-betting flop and turn, that it has material for entire training videos. Of which many already exists. Other than those mentioned by Evan Jarvis, you can also check out the 30 day CC course under "poker strategy". It has sections about C-betting and barreling as well. If I am to point out some general mistakes, that a lot of players make, they would include:

1) C-betting flop to much in multiway pots.
2) C-betting flop to much when someone with position cold called our open raise.
3) Not barreling enough turns and rivers.
4) C-betting flop with hands that are to in between.

Point number 1) should be fairly obvious. The more players, we need to get through, the less chance that everyone have missed and are willing to fold.

Point number 2) is perhaps less obvious, but it boils down to the fact, that being out of position is bad. Also when someone cold call us, they should have a fairly strong range, so we dont have the same kind of range advantage, as we do against big blind especially. How many times have you not fired that C-bet out of position, gotten called and then been there on the turn with a nothing hand and no real plan other than to check and fold.

Point number 3) is about the fact, that a lot of players these days have picked up on the fact, that the flop C-bet is coming a lot, but a turn bet usually means business. And if we fall into this pattern, we are simply to easy to play against.

Point number 4) I am going to illustrate with a recent hand history posted here on Cardschat:

PokerStars - 35/70 Ante 9 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 2,844
MP+1: 2,761
CO: 2,795
Hero (BTN): 3,054
SB: 5,740
BB: 4,621
UTG: 2,567
UTG+1: 2,618

8 players post ante of 9, SB posts SB 35, BB posts BB 70

Pre Flop:(pot: 177)Hero has K J

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 170, SB calls 135, BB calls 100

Flop:(582, 3 players) J A 5

If Hero bet here, he is getting all better hands to call and most worse hands to fold, which is obviously not, what we want. He also dont get much protection, because no turn cards are really bad for him. So for me this is a prime example of a hand, where we should just check back and look to see, what happen on the turn. Instead Hero made the C-bet, got called by both players, and then he got bailed out by binking a K on the turn giving him two pair. But we dont want to rely on that kind of luck to save us from losing chips on bad C-bets :)

Thanks for pointing out those mistakes. I certainly make some of them. You teach me a lot. Thanks again!
 
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rachelle2291

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I think this thread is pertaining to a cash game? In a tourney the stage of the tourney and relative chip size of you and your opponent would be crucial factors
 
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