a scenario under dispute

[ScottFinalTableHamilton]

it was more like risk 1 to win 1.3

me and a friend are arguing about whether the big stack made a good call. he sees it as a no brainer, i see it as fold is the right move

but i'm open to debate... i just want to see if i'm alone on this stance

reglar, you say pot odds is why he should have called... he didnt have near the right odds for a flush draw... i dont understand

 

[stormswa]

it was more like risk 1 to win 1.3

1k from 5k stack is pretty simple call and your range is pretty huge from the Big Blind so he could figure his ace was good also giving him 12 outs. If you run this through your range im guessing he is at least 50% equity.

you are not going to be able to argue a point that he should fold because math wise its the correct play to call/shove.

true he was only getting 2-1 on his call, maybe tiny bit more but because he is only risking 20% of his stack that makes up for the very small difference in pot odds.

I will run it through pokerstove now.

 

[stormswa]

he has 76% equity in the hand vs your range which is random, no brainer call.


even if we put in your hand he still has 68% equity


and even if we add the third hand is he STILL has better equity at 64% with known cards.


now if we hide the hands lets see, against 2 random hands he has 64% equity


if he fold this its a huge huge mistake.


ive been trying to run different things to try to get his equity under 50% but just cant so yea your friend is right. even with pot odds of only 2-1 he has to call vs random hands.

 

[ScottFinalTableHamilton]

how does having a big stack make you willing to take bigger risks?

 

[ScottFinalTableHamilton]

what does equity mean in the context of poker?

 

[stormswa]

what does equity mean in the context of poker?

go here
PokerStove: Poker Software and Analysis



The values generated are all-in equity values. This is not the chance that a hand will win the pot. Rather it is the fraction of the pot that a hand will win on average over many repeated trials, including split pots. The equity for a hand is calculated by dividing the number of "pots" that the hand won by the number outcomes considered. Because two players can split a pot, a player can win fractional pots. Thus, it is possible for a hand to have non-zero equity despite the fact that it cannot win.
equity (%) win (%) / tie (%) Hand 1: 50.3340 % [ 49.39 00.95 ] { 2s2h } Hand 2: 49.6660 % [ 48.72 00.95 ] { random }


In the above example the pair of twos has 50.334% equity. That equity is made up of 49.39% win equity, and .95% tie equity. The tie equity is not the percentage of time that a hand will tie, rather it is the equity attributed to ties. Tie equity is reported instead of % tie because the amount of equity that a tie generates depends on how many players shared the pot. If two players share a pot, half the equity for that pot will given to each player. If three players share a pot, one third of the equity for that pot will be allocated.

 

[stormswa]

how does having a big stack make you willing to take bigger risks?

yes it means you can "afford" to take those risks.

 

[ScottFinalTableHamilton]

you say he has to call for 2-1 against "random hands."..... i pushed all in over the top of a raise.... how does that suggest that i have a "random hand"

 

[ScottFinalTableHamilton]

he has to put me on at least a pair, with an outside chance of a total bluff (which happens to be what i was doing)

 

[KMC1828]

the guy only had to risk 1/5 of his chipstack to call your all in.

he still would have had enough of a stack to not have to worry about being shortstacked if he lost your all in.

he was only getting 2-1-ish in pot odds, and with his flush draw and his ace, he figured he had 12 outs to outdraw you.

the range of hands he could put you on since you were in BB made him think he had a better shot of winning the hand anyway.

it is a no brainer call vs. your possible range of hands.

 

[stormswa]

you say he has to call for 2-1 against "random hands."..... i pushed all in over the top of a raise.... how does that suggest that i have a "random hand"

because you are in big blind you could have anything at all, therefore your hand is RANDOM.

 

[stormswa]

he has to put me on at least a pair, with an outside chance of a total bluff (which happens to be what i was doing)

you had a semi-bluff actully. , it was fine play by you and fine call by him.

I can run it against a known hand if you like but he still would be correct in calling?

even against 9-T he has 48% equity and you have 51%, that gives you a pair and straight draw and that is best case.

see why its a no brainer?

 

[ScottFinalTableHamilton]

i dont think you can say i could have had anything... i was only 150 invested

 

[ScottFinalTableHamilton]

wait you are telling me that had he known i had 9 6 it would still have been correct for him to call?

 

[stormswa]

wait you are telling me that had he known i had 9 6 it would still have been correct for him to call?

yep.

I cant screen shop it because im not on my desktop but yea against pair and straight draw he is still correct to call.

 

[stormswa]

i dont think you can say i could have had anything... i was only 150 invested

with your stack size yes we can say it, you had under 10BB you can shove there with wide range.


im glad you started this thread though might help people having troule figuring out their equity in a hand, and welcome to forum.

 

[reglardave]

me and a friend are arguing about whether the big stack made a good call. he sees it as a no brainer, i see it as fold is the right move

I side with your friend. Look at the situatin objectively. He's got you well covered, flop comes all middle cards. On the flop, he's got middle pair, top kicker, and the nuts draw. Situations reversed, I think if you're honest w/ yourself, you make the call in a heartbeat. I certainly would.

 

[ScottFinalTableHamilton]

after running some things through a hold em calculator i have decided that you are right. haha

 

[stormswa]

after running some things through a hold em calculator i have decided that you are right. haha

welcome to forum!

 

[reglardave]

Storm's not really a fish, he just plays one in his sig. Welcome to CardsChat.

 

[pezjb]

This doesn't even make sense. If SB is in the pot, and you are BB. You said the other guy was OOP, how is that possible.. he has position on both of you no matter if he is UTG or the button. Plus, you show that he checks first which is impossible if SB and BB are in the pot. This is an awful typed post IMO. Thank you and I love to contribute my opinion.

 

[Madness_does]

I would have made the call, I have 5200 chips, and I have mid pair with a flush draw, hell if your stupid enough to go all in knowing that you don't have a pair, I'm stupid enough to call you and try knock you out the table, if you win oh well your still not a threat to me, but if I win your ass out and the other chip player is in deep trouble.

And by the way Q 10 off suit is not that good of a hand, its a good hand to draw to, but with that flush draw looking at you, odds are you will be out of the game.

 

[stormswa]

This doesn't even make sense. If SB is in the pot, and you are BB. You said the other guy was OOP, how is that possible.. he has position on both of you no matter if he is UTG or the button. Plus, you show that he checks first which is impossible if SB and BB are in the pot. This is an awful typed post IMO. Thank you and I love to contribute my opinion.

It just isnt typed real well let me try to explain it a little better, the big stack limps from early position which means he is limping out of position seeing he will have to act 1st each betting round.

now the small blind completes and we are the big blind and check our option, now the big blind checks being 1st to act (which by the way is a bad play) and the small blind bets 150 and we shove.

 

[stormswa]

I would have made the call, I have 5200 chips, and I have mid pair with a flush draw, hell if your stupid enough to go all in knowing that you don't have a pair, I'm stupid enough to call you and try knock you out the table, if you win oh well your still not a threat to me, but if I win your ass out and the other chip player is in deep trouble.

And by the way Q 10 off suit is not that good of a hand, its a good hand to draw to, but with that flush draw looking at you, odds are you will be out of the game.

this is incorrect, the shove with open ended straight draw and 2 overs is correct play. It is same play I make in his spot almost everytime, we have fold equity right now and we need to stay about 10bb and with 2 limpers their range is very wide. And even if we do get called we have a open ended straight draw and 2 overs. We have to make this play.

 

[reglardave]

BTW, I've read thru here a couple of times, one thing I haven't come across yet: Who won he hand?