Meta game rant.

tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
More specifically N/L ring games.

This is a term i've seen thrown around the forum, some posters love throwing in one line replies such as “Was this play part of a meta game consideration” etc.

So for those of you that don’t know, meta game specifically is applied to complex strategy games such as, but not limited to chess, poker, business concepts, even war (That’s basing games as a very wide definition) . The basic meaning of meta game is applying a concept unrelated to the game, as regards to poker, its about the tells, your image, how other players relate and interact with you, not in this hand, maybe not this session, but for the life time of the game.

Ok, before you all start flaming and throwing around definitions, this is how I see meta-game as applied to poker. It’s not about what you do now, but how what you do now will affect your winnings in the future.

So how can we look into this and apply it, the reality of it is for a low-limit online poker player is rarely. For this concept to work in the real world we need to be playing against the same players all the time which rarely happens. So when I see a $50NL Ring player spouting about some Meta game crap, it irks me. BUT, bear in mind that a site like pokerstars is a like a money conveyer belt, the money I won playing $10NL is now being lost at $100NL to players that will undoubted lose it at $1,000NL. Obviously based on this tree there is more players with less money at the lower limits and less players with more money at the higher limits. Hence as you climb this tree, you start to meet the regulars “regs” of any certain limit.

Now whilst you may disagree, on $100NL even though I have only around 6,000 hands I have many many more hands on these players than I have of ANY $50 NL player (Dakota-xx being the exception), here and upwards is where meta-game considerations should be taken more seriously.

Let’s take an example, my table image is a TAG, easily pushed off hands without a great hand, but they know I have no fear of putting my chips in the middle with it. This drastically cuts my action, so against a reg I re-raise pre-flop with 72o, and try to reach showdown as cheaply as possible, this isn’t to win the hand, but to encourage action on later sessions. NOT a recommended strategy by the way, more realistic is to occasionally raise you small pairs/suited connectors from EP, hoping that if you DO hit a nice flop you can stack a player who played an overpair horribly slow. These are the things I make notes of myself, so I’m doing this hoping the rest of the regs are frantically noting themselves for future reference.

Now all the low limit players may be disappointed in reading this post, but you all have the chance of using Meta play. Every player for example on cardschat that play the bi-weekly money added game has an image held by the other players. Withir it’s a terrible image or a rock tight image, you need to attempt to find out what it is, and attempt to scupper you own regular opponents, the same goes for the players that regularly meet up for some low limit ring games.

Two examples, based on my own experience.

Tenbob just decides to post on Cardschat that hes just home from the pub after 16 pints of Guinness and is going to play $25NL. From experience I KNOW the action I will get is unreal; people simply think im playing like a maniac, all my hands will get paid off. Not saying that I’ve ever done this, but it’s true.

Tenbob decides to raise UTG in a Friday donkament, it’s the final table. I have K2o, the table folds, some players even fold hands like AQ. How do I know this, well its in one of Dorkus’s commentary videos, I can’t remember the exact wording but it was “Tenbob has just made a big declaration of strength by raising UTG, you need a big hand to play here”.

For everyone that’s not playing $1,000 NL against the same players every day, what can you do ?? You need to take stock, how do the players you play against on a regular basis view you ? If your looked on as a rock, can you use this image to steal more, why not play a session like a maniac then revert to your old style ? Its personal self evaluation of your own game, and looking how to maximise some stuff.

Rant end.

~TB



Crosspost- Tenbobs Poker Blog
 
Last edited by a moderator:
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Can a mod plz fix this. Stuid MS Word.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

Legend
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Total posts
4,193
i agree, but the reason some people make money and others just float or lose money is becaues they're too scared to change styles up mid session, or are too scared to make plays on people. everyone gets the same cards. if i know how you play your strong & weak hands, how do you plan to make money? me? i steal a lot, and try to get caught once early in the session. that way, you can never really 100% for sure know what i have at all times (or even a range. my bluff % goes way up from 10% in their eyes, and if they do get the gusto to call, which isnt often, i WILL have the nuts one of those times. i know how to slow down, they only get sloppy when trying to 'catch' me.)
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Jun 26, 2006
Total posts
6,794
This is a very old topic. The Beatles wrote a song on the subject:

"Lovely Rita, Meta Maid."
 
H8red

H8red

Guest
Joined
May 2, 2007
Total posts
34
So, in essence, you're saying that you have to play against the same people to utilize your meta game, but, you just told me that you raised from UTG with K-2o, to throw some people off of your regular game and get more action, basically. So now, I know you sometimes raise UTG with a big hand, and sometimes nothing, if I played with you regularly, which leaves me at.......not knowing what the hell to do against that player. Dammit, I'm confused. Post a counter-point to playing against this person, please. I do get your point about meta game, though, thank you.
 
Last edited:
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
This is a very old topic. The Beatles wrote a song on the subject:

"Lovely Rita, Meta Maid."

LOL

So, in essence, you're saying that you have to play against the same people to utilize your meta game, but, you just told me that you raised from UTG with K-2o, to throw some people off of your regular game and get more action, basically. So now, I know you sometimes raise UTG with a big hand, and sometimes nothing, if I played with you regularly, which leaves me at.......not knowing what the hell to do against that player. Dammit, I'm confused. Post a counter-point to playing against this person, please. I do get your point about meta game, though, thank you.


TB's just saying he used that super tight image to make a blind steal from EP that he normally wouldn't do. The table didn't necessarily see the K2, and his rocky image is still there.


But ya; agree with you completely, Liam. There's no point in 'mixing up your play' by tossing in raises (or reraises for that matter) with small pairs or suited connectors if the players are a) too inobservant to take notice or b) you don't play with them often enough for you to have an image of a rock or mouse or whatever.

Also, online is so loose you rarely even have to loosen up. If someone's going to pay you off regardless what hand you're telegraphing, then so be it. Just play your hand.
 
H8red

H8red

Guest
Joined
May 2, 2007
Total posts
34
TB's just saying he used that super tight image to make a blind steal from EP that he normally wouldn't do. The table didn't necessarily see the K2, and his rocky image is still there.

I thought he was saying he raised from EP with K2o to get the players to loosen up against him and get some action? So you would show the K2 if nobody called, or hope for a checkdown if you did get a caller, correct?
 
H8red

H8red

Guest
Joined
May 2, 2007
Total posts
34
NM, re-read the post and I'm mixing up my examples. Stealing using his image, not showing the K2 for action, as opposed to showing the suited-connector raise from EP early on. Thanks.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
He's just abusing his image. He's seen as a rock, raises utg, people immediately pin him on QQ+ AKs/o and fold anything worse.

Showing that bluff would just keep your opponents confused. I guess it depends where you want to go with it, but you generally just want to have a solid TAG image in the late stages of tourneys where blinds are high and stacks are small, so I think he'd just be mucking it rather than showing.

If someone called him, he'd probably slow right down because for anyone to put any chips in vs someone with a range like that, he'd have to have a pretty damn big hand.

edit:^^^ya, you get it.
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Ok, I'll grant you your definition, if you can name this scenario;

You have been setting up a player for several orbits. You know he will bite.
The contest finally comes, you challenge, he bites, and it is done.

I used to consider that a meta game thing. Meta in this case being more. More than just the hand at hand.

Give it a new name TB, or tell me it's existing name which I haven't associated it with .......
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Total posts
4,596
Ok, I'll grant you your definition, if you can name this scenario;

You have been setting up a player for several orbits. You know he will bite.
The contest finally comes, you challenge, he bites, and it is done.

I used to consider that a meta game thing. Meta in this case being more. More than just the hand at hand.

Give it a new name TB, or tell me it's existing name which I haven't associated it with .......

Of course it is ridiculous to claim there is no meta game at lower buy ins, or in games where you are not playing people you have history with.

Is there more meta game considerations in those situations where you have more history with the players? Of course.

Are there less meta game considerations at tables with unobservant opponents that you have never played with before. Of course.

But you always have a table image (general), and you almost always have a history with an individual player (specific), even if it is only the last/one hand (maybe the last one, where you showed him the nuts). Those are meta game considerations. They are not to be discounted.

That being said, points made about opponents not paying attention, and considerations of table turnover, and other "subtractions" to the meta game considerations certainly should be taken into account, and perhaps result in meta game considerations being weighted too heavily in "most" situations where the OP sees them used.
 
Top 10 Games
Top