$2 NLHE 6-max: River 2-Pair on 4 to Straight Runout

[Jamalex]

Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hey everybody! Feel free to SKIP this paragraph, this has nothing to do with the hand for review.

I'm mostly just saying this for myself but up until this moment in my life I have been a LOSING poker player. (As much as it pains me to admit) I can only imagine how much money I've lost playing this game I love to this point. I was struggling at low stakes for a couple months. (NL10 and NL25 mostly) More like a few years if we include live 1/2 and all those tournaments that I donated to the prize pool each Sunday. I kept blaming it on being unlucky, running bad, etc. when in reality, I was just not very good. A few months ago I decided to humble myself and realize I'm not as good at poker as I think. I've been studying tons of hours of poker and have really changed my game for the better, playing just here and there to practice what I'm learning. I decided in November I was going to start all over and work from the bottom at 2NL and do it right this time once the new year starts. So here's to a new year and a new me! Also if anyone has any advice for how often I should study vs play I'm all ears. I'm gonna start posting hands at least a few times a week for review. That being said I've already found some...interesting spots to say the least here in the microstakes during the two sessions I've played so far.

UTG: 101.5 BB
MP: 101 BB
CO: 59.5 BB
Hero (BTN): 274.5 BB
SB: 246 BB
BB: 119.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:club: 9:spade:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.5 BB, 2 players) 6:club: 9:heart: Q:club:
BB checks, Hero bets 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB

Turn: (14.5 BB, 2 players) T:heart:
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (14.5 BB, 2 players) K:spade:
BB checks, Hero bets 14 BB, BB raises to 50 BB, fold

BB wins 40.5 BB

1. Am I betting too thin for value on this river or is it a mandatory bet here?

2. Should I use this hand to bluff catch vs a raise in this spot? I feel it's hard for me to have any value hand that checks the turn and bombs river besides a Jx hand I bet flop and checked back turn with which is not many. I think just J10, J9 and maybe once in a while J6s. K10 is the only other hand I can think of that could take this line for value. Really thinking about this spot, if my opponent was competent at all he would be putting me in a tough spot with even my Jx because I can't have AJ and he could here, so he can raise any J here with no fear at all and check raise bluff a ton here. Guess this brings me back to question 1 again...

3. I like this hand as a c-bet BTN vs BB being middle pair good kicker on a wet flop with a number of different draws but no possible made flush/straights. I used to always check middle pairs back but I'm thinking I should c-bet some of them some of the time now. Is this ok to do?

Thanks for reviewing this, most of the hands I post in the future will be much less lengthy I promise!

 

[crazycitizen]

Firstly, I'm glad to hear you are willing to put your ego aside and start to properly work at the game
Forewarning: I will be overly critical. This is because you said you wanted to improve so I am trying to be as helpful as possible.
But I will be blunt and not give much explanation as I think it's better for you this way.


1. If you are a losing player I would personally not be opening K9os from the button. Later on you can but first I would work on your fundamentals, K9os will simply get you into tricky spots. Hands like 9Tsuited are easier to play than K9os for example.
2. Your open-raise size is a bit oldschool. 2.5BB is better, not 3BB.
3. The flop is ok for your hand/range but there are a lot of draws out there. You can delay your cbet here for the turn. Or if villain leads turn you can decide what you want to do.
The problem with betting this flop is villain will call it a lot and you do not gain much info, you are also doing fine to get to showdown.
4. Betting flop doesn't really give you much protection on this board.
5. You check the turn, and you probably would check most turns, putting you in an awkward position. You look weak. This is the problem with your line, checking flop and cbetting turn on this board is much stronger.
You could also go large (150% pot) on turn, as you will push your opponent into a really tough decision, where they will often only continue with sets, made straights, 2pairs and some QX.
6. Never bet a river with 4 to a gut-shot straight on board, with any hand that's not a straight. Villain simply cannot call your bet without a straight, and he can never bluff you if you bet.
7. If you want to check-call at least villain can be bluffing. But at these stakes, people don't bluff enough on these super wet boards.
8. Your hand is not a good bluff-catch on a crazy wet river when you have already bet, players will not re-raise you on the river with a bluff on 2NL.

Hope that helps,
Remember it is only my perspective and I will never be 100% correct ^^

 

[fundiver199]

First of all I love the fact, that you have decided to work seriously on your game, and also that you start with cash games. This is also, what I did back in the day. Around 20k hands at 2NL, and then I moved to 5NL. These days I mostly play tournaments, but I have around half a million cash game hands under my belt. On to the hand:

Preflop
I think, K9o is a mandatory open from BTN, and I like the 3BB size as well.

Flop
You flopped second pair good kicker, and there are merits to both C-betting and checking back. Its fine to simply mix it up to get experience with, what tends to work best in your player pool and with your personal play style.

Turn
One of the advantages of betting the flop is, that usually you wont be facing a turn bet, and this allow you to get to the river for the price of just one bet. If you bet again, you will begin to value own yourself, so for me this is a clear check back.

River
It is a little thin to bet for value, but my main objection here is your sizing. If you bet here, you are basically trying to get called by a worse two pair, so you need to give those hands a price, they are willing to call. I would bet around half pot, but against some opponents I would also check back and take a cheap showdown. Anyways when you get check-raised, its rarely going to be a bluff in the micros. If the guy had a busted draw and wanted to bluff, he would usually lead out, since you checked back the turn. So you can comfortably fold here and move on to the next hand. This is usually going to be exactly, what it looks like: A jack or even AJ for the nuts.

 

[Jamalex]

Firstly, I'm glad to hear you are willing to put your ego aside and start to properly work at the game
Forewarning: I will be overly critical. This is because you said you wanted to improve so I am trying to be as helpful as possible.
But I will be blunt and not give much explanation as I think it's better for you this way.


1. If you are a losing player I would personally not be opening K9os from the button. Later on you can but first I would work on your fundamentals, K9os will simply get you into tricky spots. Hands like 9Tsuited are easier to play than K9os for example.
2. Your open-raise size is a bit oldschool. 2.5BB is better, not 3BB.
3. The flop is ok for your hand/range but there are a lot of draws out there. You can delay your cbet here for the turn. Or if villain leads turn you can decide what you want to do.
The problem with betting this flop is villain will call it a lot and you do not gain much info, you are also doing fine to get to showdown.
4. Betting flop doesn't really give you much protection on this board.
5. You check the turn, and you probably would check most turns, putting you in an awkward position. You look weak. This is the problem with your line, checking flop and cbetting turn on this board is much stronger.
You could also go large (150% pot) on turn, as you will push your opponent into a really tough decision, where they will often only continue with sets, made straights, 2pairs and some QX.
6. Never bet a river with 4 to a gut-shot straight on board, with any hand that's not a straight. Villain simply cannot call your bet without a straight, and he can never bluff you if you bet.
7. If you want to check-call at least villain can be bluffing. But at these stakes, people don't bluff enough on these super wet boards.
8. Your hand is not a good bluff-catch on a crazy wet river when you have already bet, players will not re-raise you on the river with a bluff on 2NL.

Hope that helps,
Remember it is only my perspective and I will never be 100% correct ^^

Thank you for your reply. I think the blunt truth is definitely what I need at this point in time!

I agree I much prefer 109s or even 56s to K9o although I have come up with my own preflop strategy and I believe I'm RFI something like 17%, 20%, 30%, 50% and 40% from each position. (LJ-SB) This hand is a RFI only in my BTN and SB raises. If I go through the next 10,000 hands and I see the same mistakes I'm still making that I used to, I will definitely tighten up my range and remove a hand like that as well until I fix the issues that I have been working on. Although I only have around 6000 hands in the last 2 months I've really been focusing on learning the fundamentals instead and those hands are me just trying things out and to practice what I have been learning.

As for my sizing I have struggled with deciding if I should be 3xing or 2.5xing when I open. I may indeed be wrong here and if so why do people suggest using 2.5x is better? Is there math behind it I can learn to see for myself? My reasoning at this time for taking the 3x approach at 2NL is I don't want to look like I know what I'm doing and I'd rather blend in with all the others who raise 3x rather then the more competent players who do seem to raise 2.5x alot of the time.

As for the rest of your points I have read them all and definitely found value in them so thank you!

 

[Jamalex]

First of all I love the fact, that you have decided to work seriously on your game, and also that you start with cash games. This is also, what I did back in the day. Around 20k hands at 2NL, and then I moved to 5NL. These days I mostly play tournaments, but I have around half a million cash game hands under my belt. On to the hand:

Preflop
I think, K9o is a mandatory open from BTN, and I like the 3BB size as well.

Flop
You flopped second pair good kicker, and there are merits to both C-betting and checking back. Its fine to simply mix it up to get experience with, what tends to work best in your player pool and with your personal play style.

Turn
One of the advantages of betting the flop is, that usually you wont be facing a turn bet, and this allow you to get to the river for the price of just one bet. If you bet again, you will begin to value own yourself, so for me this is a clear check back.

River
It is a little thin to bet for value, but my main objection here is your sizing. If you bet here, you are basically trying to get called by a worse two pair, so you need to give those hands a price, they are willing to call. I would bet around half pot, but against some opponents I would also check back and take a cheap showdown. Anyways when you get check-raised, its rarely going to be a bluff in the micros. If the guy had a busted draw and wanted to bluff, he would usually lead out, since you checked back the turn. So you can comfortably fold here and move on to the next hand. This is usually going to be exactly, what it looks like: A jack or even AJ for the nuts.

Thank you I appreciate that. I'm not sure what type of bankroll I should start to take shots at 5NL, whether it be at $100 or $150. I'm starting off with $40 (20 Buyins) at 2NL right now. Assuming things go well for me over the next month or 2, do you have a recommendation for either one or something else?

1. In the previous reply and many times before I hear people prefer the 2.5x size to 3x. Is there math I can learn which supports this or is this easily explainable why?

2. I think I'm realizing I'm gonna need to try some things like this for myself and see where it gets me. If it isn't profitable then I'll know from experience rather then being told just to do or not to do. I think I'll mostly still check back for now but try and find spots where I think betting a good middle pair is profitable.

3. That's the exact reason I like this play is because the opponent is likely to check turn to me as well if I bet flop.

4. As for the river spot, would you use the same 1/2 pot size for your Jx hands as well if you were to bet K9 and K10 here? I believe both of you were correct when you said their bluffs would mostly lead on this river and not check to me. They'll almost never be bluffing here and have either a J or AJ so I should only hero my Jx hand here and I'll even run into AJ some of the time which will suck. But luckily I'll fold out a good chunk of his AJ on the flop bet I believe unless he has flush or backdoor flush draws.

Thank you!

 

[crazycitizen]

Thank you for your reply. I think the blunt truth is definitely what I need at this point in time!

I agree I much prefer 109s or even 56s to K9o although I have come up with my own preflop strategy and I believe I'm RFI something like 17%, 20%, 30%, 50% and 40% from each position. (LJ-SB) This hand is a RFI only in my BTN and SB raises. If I go through the next 10,000 hands and I see the same mistakes I'm still making that I used to, I will definitely tighten up my range and remove a hand like that as well until I fix the issues that I have been working on. Although I only have around 6000 hands in the last 2 months I've really been focusing on learning the fundamentals instead and those hands are me just trying things out and to practice what I have been learning.

As for my sizing I have struggled with deciding if I should be 3xing or 2.5xing when I open. I may indeed be wrong here and if so why do people suggest using 2.5x is better? Is there math behind it I can learn to see for myself? My reasoning at this time for taking the 3x approach at 2NL is I don't want to look like I know what I'm doing and I'd rather blend in with all the others who raise 3x rather then the more competent players who do seem to raise 2.5x alot of the time.

As for the rest of your points I have read them all and definitely found value in them so thank you!

Yea I think tightening up when you are learning is good, in my opinion. As you can focus your learning on fewer starting hands and later open up your range.

When it comes top 3xing or 2.5xing, I see your point that you want to blend in, but basically with 2.5x you can open more hands as you are risking less.
You will also get called wider and it means you can play more pots in position (which you want). And gives you an easier/cheaper decision when the blinds 3bet you.
But for more details you should google the question and see a lot more perspectives on it.

Hope that helps

 

[fundiver199]

Thank you I appreciate that. I'm not sure what type of bankroll I should start to take shots at 5NL, whether it be at $100 or $150. I'm starting off with $40 (20 Buyins) at 2NL right now. Assuming things go well for me over the next month or 2, do you have a recommendation for either one or something else?

I do recommend moving to 5NL relatively fast, so for me 100$ would be fine. I have even played 5NL with like 70-80$ in my bankroll. The important thing is, that you are willing to either move down again or pop some extra money into the account. That is after all an option, as long as we are talking amounts like this, so dont get to hung up on bankroll management at this point. Its more important to develop your game.

1. In the previous reply and many times before I hear people prefer the 2.5x size to 3x. Is there math I can learn which supports this or is this easily explainable why?

2,5x is probably closer to, what solvers and AI programs suggest, and I do use that size sometimes in tough cash games like for instance 25NL or 30NL. But in general there is little point in being in a tough cash game, because you are just going to get raked away. And a larger size works better against people, who tend to call to much and not 3-bet enough. The main reason to go small is, that you lose less, when someone 3-bets you. In soft live games you see people use 4x or 5x, so 3x is certainly not extreme.

4. As for the river spot, would you use the same 1/2 pot size for your Jx hands as well if you were to bet K9 and K10 here?

Yes I would also use a relatively small size with JX, since you are still trying to get called by two pair, which on a board like this is essentally the same as second pair on a spread out board. With AJ it could make sense to overbet trying to get max value from JX and to perhaps make it look bluffy to some opponents. When the second nuts is very easy to have, then you only want to polarize with the nuts.