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gnarus
Rock Star
Silver Level
Based on the info I assume this is early in a MTT. Early in a MTT you probably have little or no read on the player. As such I would put the range of an average player at a $10.00 in a non-turbo to be something like AK, JJ-AA. For me this would be an easy fold. If it was asuper turbo or something I would call and his range would include a bunch more cards.
DaPirate- I disagree 100%. The problem with calling here is you have no idea what HJ has. If the flop comes down J, 5, 2 rainbow and he remains aggressive what then? does he had A-J or kk? At least by raising you can more then likely rule out KK or AA if he smooth calls and more then likely avoid those hands with minimal damage if he has them. Most people with pocket aces are hoping for the chance to shove pre-flop since it can be hard to know when your aces are cracked. I like the raise and would support a fold in most situations.
Just curious what did you do?
DaPirate- I disagree 100%. The problem with calling here is you have no idea what HJ has. If the flop comes down J, 5, 2 rainbow and he remains aggressive what then? does he had A-J or kk? At least by raising you can more then likely rule out KK or AA if he smooth calls and more then likely avoid those hands with minimal damage if he has them. Most people with pocket aces are hoping for the chance to shove pre-flop since it can be hard to know when your aces are cracked. I like the raise and would support a fold in most situations.
Just curious what did you do?
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doomasiggy
Legend
Silver Level
lol, no.
This is wrong on every level. Firstly, if it's a super turbo he's shoving like 77 here. Secondly people are drastically overestimating the quality of play at these levels, thirdly, even against a nitty range we've got great equity here, shove and be happy about it.
We high five the dealer.
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gnarus
Rock Star
Silver Level
Dooms- what range would you put him on then? Early in a non-turbo mtt people usually aren't 4 betting crap pocket pairs or weak aces in my experience, at least not to 3000 chips which i presume is close to his whole stack. I agree you would shove here in a turbo. When I said call in a turbo I meant call the 4 bet thinking that it would put us all in. Misread the original post sightly.
Your post isn't really clear when you say you would high five the dealer. That scenario was someone disagreeing with the 390 raise and calling the 120. You seem to be ok with the 390 raise and then shoving after correct? If so it will never get to the flop.
Your post isn't really clear when you say you would high five the dealer. That scenario was someone disagreeing with the 390 raise and calling the 120. You seem to be ok with the 390 raise and then shoving after correct? If so it will never get to the flop.
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doomasiggy
Legend
Silver Level
AQo/99+, conservatively. Wider most of the time. Wouldn't be surprised to see KQs turn up, or 88.
You play too many tournaments with good players then. There's always one guy who's looking to flip early and shoves any semi-decent pair or AQ to try and get there.
Even against the range you put him on we're flipping for our stack + the 150 from the limpers. That's more than enough equity for this to be profitable. Shove and be happy about it.
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Nooneinparticular
Rock Star
Silver Level
Add in that the HJ is also probably taking into account fold equity and his range is even wider. I see this all the time these days, someone pushing pre when there is a 3x raise witha caller with 44 because if they called they are probably flipping and slightly ahead anyway, and they gain so much in fold quity it is highly profitable.....
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gnarus
Rock Star
Silver Level
We might really be debating playing style vs right and wrong. +ev only really applies to cash games. I really don't think you are looking for coin flips early in a MTT just because it is slightly plus ev due to the blinds and limpers. I don't think you can say even if my range is CORRECT that it is correct to shove. Is that really what you meant to say? Anyway I understand where you're coming from as far as questioning my range though. Just curious how often do you see this kind of 4 bet? I play mtt's in this $ range almost every day and rarely see this kind of raise which is why I wouldn't have trouble folding under this fact pattern. I am almost never folding QQ preflop in real game situations. If I had seen villian make this kind of bet before I would be more inclined to shove putting him more on the range that you stated above. I agree there are players making this kind of bet with your range I just haven't experienced that the average player is.
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doomasiggy
Legend
Silver Level
Plus EV counts in tournaments as well, it only doesn't count when it's the bubble stage or the final table. And it's not playing style because this is as simple a spot as it gets in poker; we have a great hand, we are against a range where we crush a bunch of hands and get crushed by an equal amount of hands, and are flipping against two hands. Get it in. It would be a different scenario if we had raised 4x UTG, been 3-bet by MP and gotten 4-bet jammed on by bb; then we can safely say bb has KK or AA and can sigh fold, but here, never.
Yes it is. If he has AK, AKo, JJ+, the range you gave we have 47% equity. We're calling 2610 into a pot of 3660. This is always a call.
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
I would have called the PFR rather than 4 bet. RE-evaluate on the flop.
+EV is a hand based evaluation, and will not always mean the same thing in ring vs tourney situations. Even tho the +ev evaluation (on an imaginary scale) is the same in both, it is only a piece of the info needed to proceed. In ring, where a re-load is available, you can approach the hand with that good looking +EV easier than you can in a 'do or die' tourney situation. In tourney's, +EV has to be tempered by ICM considerations. So sometimes you can not, or should not play some +EV situations.
+EV is a hand based evaluation, and will not always mean the same thing in ring vs tourney situations. Even tho the +ev evaluation (on an imaginary scale) is the same in both, it is only a piece of the info needed to proceed. In ring, where a re-load is available, you can approach the hand with that good looking +EV easier than you can in a 'do or die' tourney situation. In tourney's, +EV has to be tempered by ICM considerations. So sometimes you can not, or should not play some +EV situations.
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gnarus
Rock Star
Silver Level
Chips have no inherent value which is the difference. In cash, if the decision is + ev it is always a good decision. The same can not be said for tournament chips. To calculate if a tournament decision is +ev you would have to estimate the worth of the chips at that point in the tournament. For example if I have 6000 chips I might estimate that I am likely to win $100 in the tournament. I might do better, I might do worse, but statistically speaking if I was able to play this tourney an infinite number of times from this position I would average $100.00 in prize money per tournament. It's easy to see why having 3000 chips in that same tournament wouldn't always have an expected payout of $50.00. Isn't it?
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doomasiggy
Legend
Silver Level
Chips here have a value relative to their % of the final payout. But because it's so early using ICM is pointless; just make positive decisions based on what will win you the most money long term.
sam1chips
Visionary
Silver Level
I would not want to see a flop with 4 other players with a pair of queens. If a king or an ace comes, you might as well just fold you're hand because you're definitely behind. You have to re-raise, you can't risk the limpers continuing to limp
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Nooneinparticular
Rock Star
Silver Level
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Yes, STT.
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Mr_Slip
Rising Star
Bronze Level
^ THIS ...
i will add one other motto i live by " NEVER CALL off your stack" (obviously except for holding AA).... if you are NOT shoving, then the hand shouldnt call a shove...........
best,
~slip
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Mr_Slip
Rising Star
Bronze Level
whole heartedly agree... in any small money entry tourney, i've seen people shove the first hand with 33, K-J off, and even something as stupid as 10-9 off... its an entirely different beast than standard tournies... why? because the players attitude is almost always, "oh well, didnt double up, time to go try another sit'n go"... i call it the "Bingo poker syndrome"... i've even seen it in live tournies up to a buy in of roughly 50$ ... stupid, but people do it... find those people as opponents
best,
~slip
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gnarus
Rock Star
Silver Level
It seems unlikely that you both would have 3000 chips early w/o knocking anyone out so I assume this a double stack stt. I think it depends on the blind structure. The slower the blinds the better the hand he is representing and vice versa. You both have large stacks compared to the current blind. If this is a double stack non turbo tournament I would def fold. The players playing ths type of structure aren't the ones pushing weak cards for some action. You have 50 more hands before the real pressure on your stack would start. A double stack turbo and I'd just push allin. You will need to take more risks to keep pace with the blinds and this is as good as any!
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