Calling first hand shoves?

StatusOmega525 · Dec 23, 2018

If you play freerolls, you probably know exactly what I'm referring to. You register for a freeroll, tournament starts, and right off the bat you have somebody who decides to shove all-in first hand. If it folds back to them, they end up just shoving again 2nd hand with a slight chip advantage.

I mean, once in a while they actually might have something worth shoving, but it seems like most of the time its just whatever two cards they get dealt. Like they've decided they are either going to start off the tournament with double the chip stack, or not bother playing at all. Usually its easy enough to wait an orbit or two at the lower blinds for these people to blow their stacks out running off against people they shouldn't.

What I'd like to know is this. Lets say somebody pulls one of these first hand shoves, and you're sitting there with AA, KK, AK suited. Something you are almost absolutely sure has the edge over whatever garbage hand they are most likely shoving with.

Do you call? Why/Why Not?

I've called several times over the past few days, almost every time I get my top pair cracked by something like J4 offsuit, or some other variation. It always seems to make sense to call, but it also seems like too much of a risk for the very first hand, especially if you end up busting out without really being able to play the tournament.

I'd welcome any thoughts on the matter.

bellicoso · Dec 23, 2018

Hi, there!

I recently posted about something similar, and I agree that you're correct to call with those premium hands. But ONLY with those hands. If you're heads up, you'll have the advantage. Try to avoid multi-handed all-in shoves, however, because your chances of winning drop.

Unfortunately, these plays are the norm early on in a lot of freerolls. Remember a lot of these players are new and inexperienced. So, we just have to accept it as another aspect of the type of game we're playing.

Anyway, good luck at the tables!

KristaK · Dec 23, 2018

hi hi
i agree, this is common on general (less so on private) tournaments and I have played in pokerstars freerolls have over 2000 players....

so yes its sometimes understandable players wish to get a early jump on chips and not spend good part of a full day grinding

what compounds this, is when rebuys and re-enters are allowed often unlimited - poker sites makes good money on these...

so players are almost encouraged try double up a few times... lose and just get a new stack for pennies and start over

if there is nothing much at stake players often no take it serious, so if you wish play freerolls try private/league ones where many players know each other and bragging rights or recognition is at stake and i find those usually 200 or so players not many thousands

But like been said, players are free to play as they wish.. and if it an all-in fest we need be able handle and deal with that... its just a part of poker

this happens not just in freerolls, buy-ins are relative to bankroll/financial situation... so $5 to a poor student like me means more, than to a millionaire

no let this all get you down... just consider it a part of poker and there is plenty of reference material out there on how to deal with this... maybe take advantage of these guys and call them with good hands and you build up your chips quick at their foolish expense?

alienat3d · Dec 23, 2018

KristaK said:
[...]buy-ins are relative to bankroll/financial situation... so $5 to a poor student like me means more, than to a millionaire[...]

I'm agreed with everything you said about Freerolls. That's truth. But i should have stopped on this one. As i have different point of view on that.
In my opinion, it doesn't really matter, if you are poor student or a millionaire, if you're taking poker seriously and stick to Bankroll management. Because i would strongly recommend to both of them start from smallest stakes and grinding (combined with studying) their way up, if they want to make successful career in poker.
Because i do believe, if any of them will do other way, there will be no profit at the end of their journey.
A student will end up having 0 bankroll, so he will probably give up poker and back to work.
A millionaire will end up paying for his gambling hazard a lot of money + time. Which is bad addiction. But well, it's okay if they want to... :flute:
Poker is not just some kind of a game. It's highly intellectual game, often compared with chess.
And it's a serious business too for some players, especially on higher limits.
Therefor it's simply reckless going on higher limits, trying to win easy money.
There are no easy money at poker. It's hard work. There're too many good players meanwhile. That's a price we paid for popularity of poker, free online poker classes, VODs, Helping software, you name it. In fact you have to be very good at it, to keep winning constantly.
Online poker is very tough in the mean time.

alienat3d · Dec 23, 2018

StatusOmega525 said:
[...]
What I'd like to know is this. Lets say somebody pulls one of these first hand shoves, and you're sitting there with AA, KK, AK suited. Something you are almost absolutely sure has the edge over whatever garbage hand they are most likely shoving with.

Do you call? Why/Why Not?[...]

I'm calling AA & KK all day long and folding AK.
Why? Simple math. Because AA & KK have too positive % of ChipEV against random range and AK has not enough. AK is great to call at later stages, when blinds are high and stacks are lower. Also when you have some more notes/stats on villains. But to reduce your variance i wouldn't call AK shove at the end of tournament. Although, as it stated in my profile, AK is my favorite hand. But to play post-flop with, not calling every shove.

p.s. Well it depends a lot on structure of tournament too and also on that fact, how much actually you personally care to go deep in these tournament. (Is prize pool in it just awesome or pretty mediocre?) If structure is too fast and you don't really care, so why don't call AK either and gamble a bit? Especially if it's a freeroll..

puzzlefish · Dec 23, 2018

StatusOmega525 said:
If you play freerolls, you probably know exactly what I'm referring to. You register for a freeroll, tournament starts, and right off the bat you have somebody who decides to shove all-in first hand. If it folds back to them, they end up just shoving again 2nd hand with a slight chip advantage.

I mean, once in a while they actually might have something worth shoving, but it seems like most of the time its just whatever two cards they get dealt. Like they've decided they are either going to start off the tournament with double the chip stack, or not bother playing at all. Usually its easy enough to wait an orbit or two at the lower blinds for these people to blow their stacks out running off against people they shouldn't.

What I'd like to know is this. Lets say somebody pulls one of these first hand shoves, and you're sitting there with AA, KK, AK suited. Something you are almost absolutely sure has the edge over whatever garbage hand they are most likely shoving with.

Do you call? Why/Why Not?

I've called several times over the past few days, almost every time I get my top pair cracked by something like J4 offsuit, or some other variation. It always seems to make sense to call, but it also seems like too much of a risk for the very first hand, especially if you end up busting out without really being able to play the tournament.

I'd welcome any thoughts on the matter.

I would recommend keeping a journal of who shoved what from what position and whether it won or lost against stronger hands. It's probably all variance but no I don't think so for some players. Rule of thumb is don't shove with AA and KK of you are expecting more than 4 players in the pot with you and your stack sizes are the same. This changes later in a MTT when you can call against smaller stacks in multiway pots but single pairs usually do not do well.

ph_il · Dec 23, 2018

It's a FR? Snapcall with ATC.

Propane Goat · Dec 24, 2018

I don't mind calling here with a wide range....really, what do you have to lose? If these are the freerolls on BCP/ACR that start a new game every 15 minutes you might as well gamble a little.

Notice that you don't see these kinds of antics in any tourney with a good-sized buy-in.

63burner · Dec 24, 2018

Calling first hand free-roll shoves, it depends..

First, how serious of a free-roll is it? An ACR on-demand, 3 hours to win 50 cents?
Or, is a Cardschat, or similar, where you can get ITM in reasonable amount of time, a reasonable place, 18-36 ITM?
If is an on-demand, shoving at any time early isn't too far off-base. If you don't double, there is always another on-demand starting up.

The more serious freebies, Cardschat, for example, 3 things before shoving:
1)-my cards, paired, suited, or runners,
2) my position, how many others are in front of me, in back of me?

3) At your poker room, you play with a lot of the same players. If you pay attention, you know which names you often see still alive at the end of tourneys. If I see one of these known grinders shoving, I would think it over a lot more than if some unknown random player is shoving.

MatMackenz · Dec 24, 2018

I have dealt with a lot of these types of villian when I was playing in the Pokerstars School Initiation League. They were actually quite common, and sometimes there was no avoiding them.

I would easy snap call with QQ+, and depending on how many to act after me I would also consider calling TT-JJ, AK/AQ.

Someone is gonna get this guys chips, and I am not folding premium hands to these light shoves. Most of the time I would double-up, but of course not everytime.

These guys are a great source of chips if you have the nerve to make the call.

Bertie Wooster · Dec 24, 2018

StatusOmega525 said:
If you play freerolls, you probably know exactly what I'm referring to. You register for a freeroll, tournament starts, and right off the bat you have somebody who decides to shove all-in first hand. If it folds back to them, they end up just shoving again 2nd hand with a slight chip advantage.

I mean, once in a while they actually might have something worth shoving, but it seems like most of the time its just whatever two cards they get dealt. Like they've decided they are either going to start off the tournament with double the chip stack, or not bother playing at all. Usually its easy enough to wait an orbit or two at the lower blinds for these people to blow their stacks out running off against people they shouldn't.

What I'd like to know is this. Lets say somebody pulls one of these first hand shoves, and you're sitting there with AA, KK, AK suited. Something you are almost absolutely sure has the edge over whatever garbage hand they are most likely shoving with.

Do you call? Why/Why Not?

I've called several times over the past few days, almost every time I get my top pair cracked by something like J4 offsuit, or some other variation. It always seems to make sense to call, but it also seems like too much of a risk for the very first hand, especially if you end up busting out without really being able to play the tournament.

I'd welcome any thoughts on the matter.

I play these things...and I usually shove any 2 cards a few ands. The $6 ticket isn't worth 2 hours to me...and I am up against 1000 players now...so I either wait until just before the late reg cut off, or jump in early and jam.

I am am calling any shoves with any reasonable hand...but my goals are different. I am gambling for a big stack, I am not trying to "play" the freeroll like a real tourney.

To each their own...if you have the time to invest in these freerolls and you "play it straight", you will inevitably do quite well...but you are STILL going to suffer goofy beats. Even huge hands aren't a lock.

KK loses to any Ace about 30% of the time.AA loses to any other pair about 20% of the time...something like 78 or 89s can crack a lot of big hands. If I have AA, I am hoping the guy flips over anything but 89...think about your goals for each tourney, and your longer goals and make the best decision for you.

Whatever you do, don't listen to any fools clamoring about "bad luck" or "rigged" poker... it's probability, period.

Good luck!

grumblbrumbl · Dec 24, 2018

Easy call with QQ+

mara2259 · Dec 24, 2018

I think this problem is typical for all freeroll tournaments. People don’t risk anything, so they can afford to push 72o from the position of the UTG. I've already told this story once. The task is to collect at least a small bankroll and go to more solid tournaments. There certainly are also a lot of fish, but they will be obliged to pay dearly for their stupidity.

StatusOmega525 · Dec 24, 2018

Hey, everybody. Thanks for all the replies. In all honesty, this isn't something I'm really losing any sleep over. I was just sorta curious what the general thoughts on the topic were.

Mostly I play BlackChip OD freerolls, once I've been back for a while and look into the CardsChat freeroll club I'll probably move into those, so at the moment its really not like theres a pot of gold at the end of the tunnel or anything. lol.

Im glad to hear my thoughts on the matter arent too different from norm, I'll probably still be calling with my top three premiums, though now I may consider AK more carefully before I make that call. We'll see how it develops.

Anyways, good luck at the tables, and for those its a thing for Merry Christmas Eve

Ricey155 · Dec 24, 2018

Any connections, pairs, suited hands your going to get rich quick or go missing, ideal situation massive first hand stack, play loose win a few more pots or sit and wait for a hand and get AA crashed out. go hard or go home.

just won 10c on 888 big win

MatMackenz said:
I have dealt with a lot of these types of villian when I was playing in the Pokerstars School Initiation League. They were actually quite common, and sometimes there was no avoiding them.

I would easy snap call with QQ+, and depending on how many to act after me I would also consider calling TT-JJ, AK/AQ.

Someone is gonna get this guys chips, and I am not folding premium hands to these light shoves. Most of the time I would double-up, but of course not everytime.

These guys are a great source of chips if you have the nerve to make the call.

RaydonPoker · Dec 25, 2018

alienat3d said:
I'm calling AA & KK all day long and folding AK.
Why? Simple math. Because AA & KK have too positive % of ChipEV against random range and AK has not enough. AK is great to call at later stages, when blinds are high and stacks are lower. Also when you have some more notes/stats on villains. But to reduce your variance i wouldn't call AK shove at the end of tournament. Although, as it stated in my profile, AK is my favorite hand. But to play post-flop with, not calling every shove.

p.s. Well it depends a lot on structure of tournament too and also on that fact, how much actually you personally care to go deep in these tournament. (Is prize pool in it just awesome or pretty mediocre?) If structure is too fast and you don't really care, so why don't call AK either and gamble a bit? Especially if it's a freeroll..

Never thought of AK this way. Will keep it in mind going forward.

As for freerolls, some people are just using up a free ticket they have or just playing for sh*t's and giggles. Just gotta take risks some times or wait and fold a few times (luckily in the lower bound levels)

Meepomancer1122 · Dec 25, 2018

Usually I call with 99+ and ATs+, since most people are just shoving literal garbage and since this happens only in freerolls, why not get your money in when you are ahead and either start with 2x starting stack or die trying?

playinggameswithu · Dec 25, 2018

All hands are gambles except AA. If you win you win worthless chips if you lose you lose your life. 4 to 1 or better call them. Usually that means QQ,KK,AA.

Calling first hand shoves?

StatusOmega525

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