Pocket 10s with low flop.

pokerstars Game #12097178041: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/09/16 - 18:21:52 (ET)
Table 'Malva' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: choppermen2 ($48.25 in chips)
Seat 2: Cigar001 ($116.65 in chips)
Seat 3: Escolator ($114 in chips)
Seat 5: TonyLFL ($92.30 in chips)
Seat 6: ThorKGB ($19.80 in chips)
Seat 7: siouxfalls ($60.25 in chips)
Seat 8: bjao ($104.15 in chips)
Seat 9: CTOB ($23.55 in chips)
TonyLFL: posts small blind $0.50
ThorKGB: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Cigar001 [Th Tc]
siouxfalls: folds
bjao: raises $2 to $3
CTOB: folds
choppermen2: calls $3
Cigar001: calls $3
Escolator: calls $3
TonyLFL: folds
ThorKGB: folds
*** FLOP *** [3s 6d 7s]
bjao: bets $10
choppermen2: calls $10
Cigar001: calls $10
Escolator has timed out
Escolator: folds
*** TURN *** [3s 6d 7s] [3h]
Escolator is sitting out
Escolator has returned
bjao: bets $25
choppermen2: folds
Cigar001: calls $25
*** RIVER *** [3s 6d 7s 3h] [8h]
bjao: checks
Cigar001: ????


Do you bet on the river here? I don't have a read at all on the other guy because he has been at the table for about 5 hands. I have been playing pretty tight but he wont have much of a read on me yet either unless he has been watching the table for a while.

Could be a missed spade draw, I'd bet out here.

I wouldnt bet, he bet alot on the turn... i dunno it just seems to scream bet at me!!! bet bet!


My guess he has something better than 10's.... but hey thats just my opinion, id just check and see if.. 10's hold thru.

After thinking about it a while, I'm thinking this may be a wa/wb situation. A check may be best here since a bet will scare away worse hands and be called by better ones.

Emperor IX said:

Could be a missed spade draw, I'd bet out here.

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whats the point of betting if he has a missed spade draw?


i see very little point of betting this river... he's folding everything u beat and calling only when he has u beat unless u think he pfr, led flop led turn w like... A7...

evny said:

whats the point of betting if he has a missed spade draw?


i see very little point of betting this river... he's folding everything u beat and calling only when he has u beat unless u think he pfr, led flop led turn w like... A7...

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Yes I had rethought it and re posted my opinion already.

The way he played that it makes me think he's pushing with a big A and checking on the river is him throwing in the white flag. He may also have a bigger pp and check the river, figuring you were chasing something and had hit.

I would check this, for two reasons. One has already been stated, if you have him beat he won't call a bet and if not you're throwing money away. If you had a better read then by all means bet, but without a read I think checking is a safer play.

The other reason though has to do with information. If you bet and he folds you won't know what his holdings are and what he was pushing so hard with. If you check however, you will see his hole cards and gain some intel on him. You may lose out a bit now, but the info could help you later on.

just my .02 cents

Thanks for the advice everyone. I just checked and he flipped over AK of hearts and I took down the pot.

I probably reraise preflop to isolate and get more info on his hand, but as played I definately check behind that river. What calls us that doesnt beat us??

bw07507 said:

I probably reraise preflop to isolate and get more info on his hand,??

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this.

Emperor IX said:

After thinking about it a while, I'm thinking this may be a wa/wb situation.

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Umm, it's the river, of course it's a wa/wb situation lol.

Looks like a standard smallish river value bet is needed to me. Reraise preflop and/or raise flop though, definitely

I rarely bet here unless im playing against a total idiot. The danger with betting this river is out stack sizes. A value whilst may be called for, we are in more trouble than we want to be in, if we get raised, then we gotta call.... Check for pot control.

tenbob said:

I rarely bet here unless im playing against a total idiot. The danger with betting this river is out stack sizes. A value whilst may be called for, we are in more trouble than we want to be in, if we get raised, then we gotta call.... Check for pot control.

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I've been in this situation and lost enough times to agree with this. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I used to think the value bet was the correct move, because 1) if we bet, say $25, hands like 99, 55, AK and maybe even AQ should call, and 2) from villain's perspective, since we've been calling this all the way, if he has a hand like JJ+, he should just call and not shove. In reality though, it doesn't work like that, and I can tell you a good 90% of times PP's better than ours will shove to our bet, and as TB pointed out, even if we might feel and understand that we're probably beat, we are forced to call because of the size of our remaining stack compared to the pot after the value bet.

Knowing he had AK one can conclude you lost a chance to make an extra $25/$30 because pretty much he's almost forced to call that bet, plus some players go all the way with AK, but in the long run checking behind in spots like this is, IMO, the +EV play. Consider also that AK might not call the value bet, based on your image or how he percieves you. Also, since this pot went 4-way he might conclude that he's behind to a medium/small pair and make the correct fold.

To me this is an instant check. The tough decision would have been if he had bet the river. He gave you the easy out. There are 2 possibilities IMO.

1. He gave up deciding his bluff didn't work and you must have some kind of hand you're calling with
2. He's trapping you with a higher pocket pair, 2 pair, set, etc.

Either way, betting is wrong here. #1 you take down the pot without a SD, #2 he re-raises you and you either call and lose more or fold and lose however much you bet on the river. Plus if you check you get a lot more information on how he plays. If you bet, either way (unless you call an all-in or at least a good raise) you either win 0 or lose money AND don't get to see his hand.