$5 NLHE 6-max: QQ v unknown 4bet preflop action.

pokerstars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com/

Button ($4.99)
SB ($4.95)
BB ($6.17)
UTG ($5)
MP ($7.42)
Hero (CO) ($6.22)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q , Q
UTG raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.44, 3 folds, UTG raises to $1.35, Hero ?


Huds not working on this particular PC so he's basically an unknown. What's the best action here by default vs unknowns? I personally dont like getting it in with queens pre 100 bb deep esp with this action but id like to know what others think.

If we want to fold QQ to a 4b, probably shouldn't be 3b it imo. I'm not a huge fan of stacking pre, but therefore, since it's an unknown UTG zoom player, might just flat pre and play.

xdeucesx said:

If we want to fold QQ to a 4b, probably shouldn't be 3b it imo. I'm not a huge fan of stacking pre, but therefore, since it's an unknown UTG zoom player, might just flat pre and play.

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I get your point with the flatting pre, but when im playing zoom i preffer 3 betting than flatting because A: we inflate the pot and B: we get info,cause if they flat it kind of takes AA-KK out of their range for the most part which is good info for us. The problem is that some guys like to stack off with AK and thats what makes it a tough decision.

It seems to me that most players just flat AK to a 3bet unless its BvB situation.

We don't 3bet for information. We bet for value/bluff/semi-bluff. QQ is a value 3bet and with 100 bb stacks, if we 3b QQ to a reasonable amount, such as in example above, we really can't fold HU to a 4b. Therefore, I think we should just flat it pre here since UTG can be stronger or we can GII if you feel comfortable doing that

Call and GII on non A high flops. I think UTG w/ no info, you should just assume QQ+/AK, maybe AQs if you're 4-bet at these stakes. Against that range, you're crushed if an A hits, but if not you're decent shape and at least allows your opponent to make some mistakes still.

But yes, purge the... "I do X for information" thought process. That's hugely -EV.

Call here. You have the position

The hero can do three things. Take a bet iron, twist it or go all-in. I recommend either twist or just go all-in. Although you can reraise-call and go to the set-velho. Well, depending on the positions. Here we are clearly in a position

John A said:

Call and GII on non A high flops. I think UTG w/ no info, you should just assume QQ+/AK, maybe AQs if you're 4-bet at these stakes. Against that range, you're crushed if an A hits, but if not you're decent shape and at least allows your opponent to make some mistakes still.

But yes, purge the... "I do X for information" thought process. That's hugely -EV.

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Im not really saying i 3bet for info. but his reaction to our 3bet does give us some info, doesnt it? I mean if he flats,or raises.

vinylspiros said:

Im not really saying i 3bet for info. but his reaction to our 3bet does give us some info, doesnt it? I mean if he flats,or raises.

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Do you have any stats about the villain?

Hero call

3betting QQ pre is going to leave you in this spots a lot of times (except if you know villain to be loose). By 3betting an UTG raiser, you are folding everything you beat and facing 4bets AK+, KK+. Against a UTG raiser I flat QQ and play for set value.

3betting was the right play. Now flat calling this 4bet seems fine and take a flop since you'll be post flop in position.

Do not hesitate to get coolered and get it in if we have over pair on flop.

Post flop play is recommended here because if villain has AK and misses then he can fold without seeing two more streets, whereas by simply shoving pre flop villian can miss the flop and still catch an ace or king later on.

Also on rare occasions we can outplay if villain has KK and slows down after an ace flops so we get a chance to bluff him off or atleast we can lose less chips by checking down till river. :bebored:

suby_rafael said:

3betting was the right play. Now flat calling this 4bet seems fine and take a flop since you'll be post flop in position.

Do not hesitate to get coolered and get it in if we have over pair on flop.

Post flop play is recommended here because if villain has AK and misses then he can fold without seeing two more streets, whereas by simply shoving pre flop villian can miss the flop and still catch an ace or king later on.

Also on rare occasions we can outplay if villain has KK and slows down after an ace flops so we get a chance to bluff him off or atleast we can lose less chips by checking down till river. :bebored:

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Even players at lower micro limits will bet the river for value even after a check check turn/river scenario. and with QQ and 1 over we are paying him off in most cases.

Aces2w1n said:

Even players at lower micro limits will bet the river for value even after a check check turn/river scenario. and with QQ and 1 over we are paying him off in most cases.

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Nice catch "genius" !!

Just because your HUD wasn't working doesn't mean his wasn't so if you are 3 betting a fair amount then don't assume his 4 bet is premium. If you were up against a 4 bet bluffer like me I could be very polarized here. So that being the case I agree totally with flatting the 4bet and playing aggressively if no ace or king comes on the flop just like John said.
It makes total sense, you can't 3 fold QQ unless you know he is a total nit.

Im so nit I can lay this down when UTG raises for $1.35 pre.

I never fold 5% range when I have this possition and call here is OK.

hffjd2000 said:

Im so nit I can lay this down when UTG raises for $1.35 pre.

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So would you be 3betting QQ then?
The point of 3betting is either for value or light as a bluff. If your bluff gets raised its an easy fold. We don't 3bet fold our value hands unless the subsequent action or player type is so extreme we can fold with certainty that we are facing one of the top two hands
In this hand the player is unknown , yes its UTG but there are many more combos of AK and light 4bets than of AA and KK. If you are folding QQ
here in position against that range I suggest that's not optimal.

We can not but EP unknown player by default to thin range like AA,KK or can we?

I mean if this is the case why are we 3beting unknown person?

Previously, there spelled. Meaning do raise 3bb then to fall to 4BB. You have a position, hand 2 categories. Calls, and there already on the flop. Not the exception that your opponent has AK or JJ. Call on the flop and beyond. bluffing is also not excluded. Me in zoom with AA once rebetting 4bb with JQ..

IMO folding isn't an option after you 3bet QQ on 6max to a 4bet. Calling is fine because you are in position so you can just play for stacks on low flops. You can't be scared to be coolered vs overpairs, just a part of the game, folding vs an unknown would be a mistake here.
If you don't want to play for stacks with QQ, don't 3bet a UTG with it

The way i see it is,

In 6 max and especially at 5NL people open from UTG with ALL pocket pairs.AK,AQ,AJ and even some AT and even KQ. Not to mention aggros and loose players who even open TJ suited etc.


Therefor im obviously 3betting for value for the most part especially with a hand like QQ.

The problem here is that 99% of the time when we are facing a 4bet and espeially at this limit, QQ is no longer good. JJ is rarely 4betting as it is no different than 88 or 66 . (taking that i 3bet and am repping a premium hand.)


Best case scenario he has AK and IMO is overplaying it since getting it in with AK pre Is pretty loose or at least for me it is.


Ive folded kings pre in 3 way pots when there was a UTG open, a 3bet ,i 4 bet and UTG insta jams. (he did have aces)


Reason i posted is i wanted to figure out if QQ is a setmining hand or hand we are willing to get it in with pre versus unknowns.


I guess after reading the responses, best way to play it is flat his 4 bet and GII on non ace high flops. But even then, we arent going to get paid by AK so it still isnt clear to me what will pay us off that we beat on non ace high flops that 4 bet us pre?


HUDS are really important here. Without one we are just walking in the dark.

vinylspiros said:

The way i see it is,
I guess after reading the responses, best way to play it is flat his 4 bet and GII on non ace high flops. But even then, we arent going to get paid by AK so it still isnt clear to me what will pay us off that we beat on non ace high flops that 4 bet us pre?
HUDS are really important here. Without one we are just walking in the dark.

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The way I see it is to flat the 4 bet and then if there is no ace or king on the flop to call if they cbet or if they check then bet the flop.
The equity of AK comes from seeing all 5 cards; if it misses the flop that hand often gives up to a bet at that point.
There are 16 combos of AK and 12 combos of AA KK so over half the time we are up against AK (assuming villain 4 bets it) and that does not count any other hands he might 4bet with that are weaker than QQ. As I pointed out earlier if YOU are a regular 3bettor than there may be persons 4 betting you light which is even more reason to flat and keep those hands in the game.
You shouldn't flat the 4 bet and then hope to check it down as we don't want to give AK the free chance to spike that card that beats us.
Clearly if they are still betting hard on the turn you can let it go at that point when there is good evidence from the betting that you are beat.
Even AA or KK might consider pot control and checking the turn at that point.

nice analysis.. Turning around and looking at this from the villain's point of view. What hand will call a 4bet and just call or check back the flop. Aren't we playing face up?

skrsh76 said:

nice analysis.. Turning around and looking at this from the villain's point of view. What hand will call a 4bet and just call or check back the flop. Aren't we playing face up?

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Aren't we just getting called by better when shoving over the top?

AK is folded too much these days.