$25NL 6-max: Weird Spot vs. Nit, Top & Bottom on straight board.

Villain is a 14/10/35% over 73 hands
He folds to 0% of C-bets (he's faced a c-bet twice).

MP: $28 (112 bb)
CO: $20 (80 bb)
Hero (BTN): $60.58 (242.3 bb)
SB: $12.09 (48.4 bb)
BB: $26.25 (105 bb)
UTG: $28.17 (112.7 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with A 3
2 folds, CO calls $0.25, Hero raises to $1.25, SB folds, BB calls $1, CO calls $1

Flop: ($3.85) T 4 5 (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets $3.05, BB calls $3.05, CO folds

Turn: ($9.95) A (2 players)
BB bets $3.75 (He used almost his whole time bank here), Hero calls $3.75

River: ($17.45) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero.....


Can we bet the river for value? If so, how much? What range do you put this guy on? He pretty much can't have a deuce...

Turn bet sizing looks to me like a block bet/bluff type thing. I was really confused at first but didn't notice the sizing and I think we just value bet this small in hopes he'll pay us off with his oddly played JT/88/Axc or whatever. Fold to a raise obv.

Weird spot.

I bet the river. I don't think he floats with air on the flop with the CO still in the hand, so he's very likely to have a hand he'd like to SD or a FD. You're only really concerned about a better 2 pair and with his river check I doubt he's got that. Something like $6 on the river should get the crying call.

What was your logic in deciding to cbet this flop? You can take a free card and you're going to be C/Red a lot here.

zachvac said:

What was your logic in deciding to cbet this flop? You can take a free card and you're going to be C/Red a lot here.

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They fold to c-bets more than 65% of the time (both of them). My image is good, and they haven't played back at my c-bets yet.

My standard play is taking the free card to my gutterball/top pair, but I c-bet anyways since these guys are passive/foldy.

at 65% each, that's a combined 42% that they'll both fold. On top of that, I'm assuming it's much smaller just because of the nature of this flop. It's extremely drawy, and basically just crushes the range of a hand that flats preflop. I don't like the flop cbet, but as played I think you do have to bet river for value. I don't know what you do to a raise, but I think you get raised extremely rarely. I may even call a raise just because it's like always a bluff (is he checking that river after you just flat called the turn if he has a straight here?), but I'm not positive here. Regardless though I think this is a bet on the river.

zachvac said:

It's extremely drawy, and basically just crushes the range of a hand that flats preflop.

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CO is a fish, and flats a ton of stuff pre, his range is way bigger than suited connectors & small pairs. And the nit has small pairs/high cards. I like teh c-bet so nyah?

I think the cbet is fine, and fwiw (and iirc) I think you check back way too many flops zach. Betting into two opponents gives us a little more respect/fold equity, sets us up for a good double/triple barrel and gives us a better image for when we really have a hand here.

ChuckTs said:

fwiw (and iirc) I think you check back way too many flops zach.

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Well fwiw I think people in general (can't say you for sure) cbet way too many flops, so there .

But in all seriousness I do cbet a lot less than other people, and have been thinking a lot about cbetting in general, and I think against competent players cbetting less is better.

But either way we need to have a reason for cbetting. I know we get more respect betting into 2 people, but they also have a hand a lot more. I don't think the respect increase makes up for the fact that first off there's 2 and second off it's an extremely bad board to cbet, just crushes their range.

What range are you betting this flop with?

I'd be curious what came up from posting this flop cbetting scenario on stox or 2+2.

ChuckTs said:

I'd be curious what came up from posting this flop cbetting scenario on stox or 2+2.

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Not sure I'd go with everything people say there, but I was curious as well: $25NL 6-max: Weird Spot vs. Nit, Top & Bottom on straight board. - Two Plus Two Poker Forum

zachvac said:

Well fwiw I think people in general (can't say you for sure) cbet way too many flops, so there .

But in all seriousness I do cbet a lot less than other people, and have been thinking a lot about cbetting in general, and I think against competent players cbetting less is better.

But either way we need to have a reason for cbetting. I know we get more respect betting into 2 people, but they also have a hand a lot more. I don't think the respect increase makes up for the fact that first off there's 2 and second off it's an extremely bad board to cbet, just crushes their range.

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yea but guys in nl25 who aren't crazy don't tend to bluff raise many flops, so you can cbet high without getting exploited like you would at nl200 etc. That said, this is a bad board to cbet, in the sense that it hits villain's ranges quite well.

Anyways value bet the river...what can a nit like that ever show up with that beats you? Sets and stuff would play fast because of the drawy board and this guy is only ever going to be calling with big aces and pps (mb s/cs but i doubt it), of which in this case a big ace is probably more likely and i doubt he'll let it go on the river.

Keep in mind this guy isn't a good nit. He's weak/passive, and he's never 3-betting. So I think sets & hands like JJ are in his range.