200nl6max: 88 bvb

Villain is a decent reg; 21/17/2, %7 3bet, tiny %25 fold to 4bet. If we're thinking about postflop, he cbets %52 and barrels %48. 32 wtsd

Kind of a boring spot I guess, but I feel like stacking here is good because he a) 3bets so wide (even wider vs steals), b) never folds to 4bets, and c) especially not against me, an aggressive reg myself. I also don't really want to play a pot oop against him with 88, but I guess he's passive enough post that I could consider it...Thoughts?

poker stars, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP: $200 (100 bb)
CO: $200 (100 bb)
BTN: $209 (104.5 bb)
Hero (SB): $507.50 (253.8 bb)
BB: $203 (101.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with 8 8
3 folds, Hero raises to $7, BB raises to $26, Hero ...

yeah, i think jamming is cool.

but is it profitable?

prob. also good for metagame. sry i can't really help with serious advice. etc.

just a bad joke on my part...

There's a good article in HEM on 4-betting with the intention of getting it in. I can't really say more than that, because it's so dependent on dynamics and stats. Except that I don't think I've ever happily gotten it in with eights so far preflop.

I don't know, but vs a range of AJs, AQ+ 77+ you are a 60:40 dog. But he will have air in his range for sure which will give you the $40 or so in dead money. But 40$ is the amount you lose everyhand overall felting it preflop w/40% equity.

So if we consider his preflop stacking range as something like the above (not sure if it is correct, but tbh that seems like an incredibly wide stacking range to me) then he has to fold to the 4B 50% for it to be breakeven.

Obv dynamic based, if you had been stealing his BB alot and he had been playing back at you then it is probably fine, but seems pretty marginal to me. Even vs AJo+, ATs+ 77+ you are a 57:43 dog and that is a crazy wide stacking range.

From the story your stats about villain told us, and your read on the situation, I think you were justified when you probably obviously stacked your villain. As for advice, that same story told us that you had a read on the situation that transcends simple stats and HH's and that little we could add would be helpful.

feitr said:

I don't know, but vs a range of AJs, AQ+ 77+ you are a 60:40 dog. But he will have air in his range for sure which will give you the $40 or so in dead money. But 40$ is the amount you lose everyhand overall felting it preflop w/40% equity.

So if we consider his preflop stacking range as something like the above (not sure if it is correct, but tbh that seems like an incredibly wide stacking range to me) then he has to fold to the 4B 50% for it to be breakeven.

Obv dynamic based, if you had been stealing his BB alot and he had been playing back at you then it is probably fine, but seems pretty marginal to me. Even vs AJo+, ATs+ 77+ you are a 57:43 dog and that is a crazy wide stacking range.

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yeah well even if he jams AJo+, ATs+, 77+, all the times he folds here makes up for us being a 57:43 dog

edit: it's sort of like jamming AK preflop. you don't do it because you think you're golden against villain's range (esp. with those villains who only get it in preflop KK+), but all the times villain raise/folds preflop makes it a worthwhile shove

vanquish said:

yeah well even if he jams AJo+, ATs+, 77+, all the times he folds here makes up for us being a 57:43 dog

edit: it's sort of like jamming AK preflop. you don't do it because you think you're golden against villain's range (esp. with those villains who only get it in preflop KK+), but all the times villain raise/folds preflop makes it a worthwhile shove

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yea i know, that is why i said he has to fold at least 50% of the time to the 4B. But according to chuck, he is really not inclined to be folding to 4Bs here at all once he makes the initial 3B (only 25%). So the question then is this: if villain is 3Bing fairly light here is he willing to get it in really light (ie. 70% of his 3Bing range or whatever) or is his 3Bing range actually tighter than we might think (ie. getting it in 70% will actually be like AQo+, AJs+ 77+). Sb vs bb villain might be flatting a fairly wide range, ie. not 3Bing decent but somewhat marginal hands, which would be turning alot of decent hands into bluffs, or 3Bing alot of marginal hands for "value". What i am saying might not be that clear, but what i mean is that if somebody is 3Bing 7% and rarely folding to a 4B, they are either willing to get it in light (well obv this has to be the case to some degree) or they don't tend to 3B hands like s/cs and just focus on the "top 7%", which IMO is more likely the case. Pokerstove has the top 5% of hands as 88+,AJs+,KQs,AKo, so if you are getting it in with 75% or so of the top7% hands, you are looking at a range like ^^, which definitely does well against 88.

The real question then is how much wider is villain's 3B range in a sb vs bb situation, especially vs an aggressive player who steals alot. And obv can't know that without alot more information. Just thoughts, not trying to say what is the right or wrong play as it is mostly dynamic based and I don't think you can really analyse this in a vacuum (ie. get results oriented about it). If villain showed up with AJs here then it looks like a completely standard play, and if villain shows up with AA it looks idiotic, but both those hands are part of a range that most likely > 88.

As for my actual opinion about what to do:

I'd 4B and get it in if villain 3B wider from the blinds (ie. clearly was 3Bing light) and there was an aggressive dynamic present (bvb steals/battles/3Bs etc). You aren't bad against a "value 3B range" and if you can definitely put some very airish hands in villain's range where he is forced to fold alot of his range or get it in REAL light then i think this becomes profitable. With no dynamic and villain not inclined to make alot of moves bvb or whatever, then i'd fold. Calling really is never an option imo.

He definitely opens up more bvb or just in stealing spots in general. He's %8 in the blinds, and more specifically he's %10/%9 in sb/bb vs a steal. That's mostly why I got it in, tbh I had no idea if 88 was even good against that kind of range, but just out of guesstimations I felt he was 3betting wide enough and that I had enough FE to get it in.

Not sure about my play of 4betting 2.5x and calling it off vs shoving either...

since i sucketh at 6 max, quick question

if villain calls a 4 bet of $90 or whatev you raised to, are you open shoving 100% of flop? or check/calling flops such as a,q,x

I'm 4betting to like 58 here and tbh get a little clueless when they call the 4bet. Usually I'll cbet Axx/Kxx flops since the call of a 4bet either means AA/KK or TT/JJ/weird 89s hand, and thus means that it's unlikely he has me beat and it's likely I can get him to fold.

On something with more overcards I generally ch/f.

I don't think this is the type of player who would call a 4bet though, but I might be wrong.

Just an FYI, dunno how revelant (FR vs 6MAX). I flat every 4 bet with KK/AA

tenbob said:

Just an FYI, dunno how revelant (FR vs 6MAX). I flat every 4 bet with KK/AA

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Only point for this is vs a spaz imo. Villain is going to get AQ/AK etc in pf if they 4B, but if you flat the 4B they may get so confused/scared you have a monster that they c/f a lowcard flop, and you may also have them fold flop with a hand like TT/JJ when flop is overcards, etc. Only advantage to flatting a 4B is vs somebody who 4Bs light alot (suprised if this happens at all in 100nl FR) and is then going to spaz out bluffing on the flop, but would have to fold to a 5B shove when they ahve no fold equity.