$2 NLHE Full Ring: Fold AA in 3b pot after donk and barrel?

Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 21/8/5

I'm prepared to be roasted alive on this one. maybe I'm a nit. should I just suck it up and stack off?


Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4


UTG: 262 BB (VPIP: 20.83, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 48)
UTG+1: 90.5 BB (VPIP: 21.43, PFR: 17.86, 3Bet Preflop: 10.00, Hands: 28)
MP: 102.5 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 11.43, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
MP+1: 98 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
Hero (CO): 163 BB
BTN: 39.5 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
SB: 107 BB (VPIP: 38.64, PFR: 22.73, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 44)
BB: 39.5 BB (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 30)


SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB


Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A:diamond: A:club:


UTG raises to 3.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, fold, UTG calls 6.5 BB


Flop: (21.5 BB, 2 players) J:diamond: 3:spade: Q:club:
UTG bets 10 BB, Hero calls 10 BB


Turn: (41.5 BB, 2 players) 4:heart:
UTG bets 29.5 BB, fold


[spoil]UTG wins 39.5 BB
[/spoil]
 
Navin Sarabjeet

Navin Sarabjeet

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Total posts
2,541
Awards
22
SR
Chips
235
So you automatically give this person qj or better????

I wouldn't.
 
M

mikeisthebestever

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 5, 2017
Total posts
162
Chips
0
I think in this specific spot when he leads into you on the flop you should min 3-bet him. If he raises, or flats and leads into you again, you are most likely behind and can make an exploitative fold.

As played I would find it hard to find the fold because your hand seems pretty under repped.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
So you automatically give this person qj or better????

I wouldn't.


because its an UTG raise that called a 3bet with relatively nitty stats (granted only 48 hands so not super relevant, but it's what I've got). I'm putting him on a pretty solid range here.


Anyways, I feel like that board smashes his flatting range. I'm beating AQ and bluffs. and I block AQ so.... Also there's no obvious draws he can be barreling. like KT? I don't think so, 9Ts maybe...no flush draws....


I'm probably giving him too much credit.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
I think in this specific spot when he leads into you on the flop you should min 3-bet him. If he raises, or flats and leads into you again, you are most likely behind and can make an exploitative fold.

As played I would find it hard to find the fold because your hand seems pretty under repped.

I kind of like this plan. Even though it seems like an information raise which in general is not a smart thing to do, but it might be here because it's cheaper than calling his turn bet and can also serve as thin value.


I think if I just flat flop I've got to call turn a lot....which I didn't.
 
Maxym

Maxym

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 17, 2017
Total posts
1
Chips
0
I think it was a good fold against an adequate opponent
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
I haven’t figured standard answer to the cases like this. It feels donks like this are 63% shit, 37% strong.

You block and board blocks many combos that would be on funny category: AQ, QJ, AJ, AK. You can’t take KK out of his 3bet flat range imo, that sifts the balance a bit for you.

Things I would check are how often villain donks, if lots then I would just close my eyes and call to the end. Also if his stats are in balance I would probably fold at least river. Here they are not balanced, so I would probably try to find a call. But against nit folding is correct. If nit he might find a check on the river with KK.

His AF number says he might think TPGK is worth of 3streets of value, AFq would be better indicator because not many hands.

All in all, this hand might be zero EV whatever hero decides to do without notes.

leads into you again, you are most likely behind
Here this might be true, but in general leading turn again against flop raise on the turn is very common line from bad players both for value and protection and with completely idon’treallyunderstandwhatyouarethingkin range.
 
Last edited:
Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2017
Total posts
3,235
Chips
0
3bet bigger pre.
Raise flop and take the aggression back to your side. If v raises back or donks turn probably you are beat. Otherwise check back turn & evaluate on river.
But since both are deep, I don't mind calling this down on a considerable river sizing.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
3bet bigger pre.
Raise flop and take the aggression back to your side. If v raises back or donks turn probably you are beat. Otherwise check back turn & evaluate on river.
But since both are deep, I don't mind calling this down on a considerable river sizing.

How much bigger to 3b and why? Would You recommend I do this with my entire 3b range; or is this exploitative with better hands?
 
Luvart

Luvart

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Total posts
1,480
Awards
15
GR
Chips
721
As others said above, it's a very tough spot.

Although you have only 48 hands with the villain, his PFR of about 8% in a VPIP of about 20%, indicates he is a bit passive.

He opens 3.5 bb from UTG, you 3-bet him about 3x (your 3-bet size is good imo) and he calls you OOP (from the toughest position for him to be honest).....I put him on QQ, JJ, 10-10 and AK.

The QJ3 flop is not good for you given the action pre. He can have an awesome.....set of QQ or JJ easily. He fires a strange bet of 45%, I think the call is acceptable. Then on the turn he fires a 70% bet and now you are in a very difficult position.

It's a pure instinct hand. I would fold.

You have overpair AA, but it's still a single pair hand. I'm trying hard to find how your single pair hand is good here.

Again, I would fold. My honest opinion.
 
Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2017
Total posts
3,235
Chips
0
How much bigger to 3b and why? Would You recommend I do this with my entire 3b range; or is this exploitative with better hands?

Around 12ish or more I guess. I think your intention here should be to play for stacks with the best starting hand. So it's a bit pointless to 3bet & play post flop scared that just flatting pre & playing post is better than that when both are quite deep. That's my opinion.
 
Luvart

Luvart

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Jul 14, 2017
Total posts
1,480
Awards
15
GR
Chips
721
Around 12ish or more I guess. I think your intention here should be to play for stacks with the best starting hand. So it's a bit pointless to 3bet & play post flop scared that just flatting pre & playing post is better than that when both are quite deep. That's my opinion.

So, when me and opponent are deep and I have AA or KK, the two correct ways to play in situations like this are:

a)either to make a bigger 3-bet
b)flat and play postflop ?
 
Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2017
Total posts
3,235
Chips
0
So, when me and opponent are deep and I have AA or KK, the two correct ways to play in situations like this are:

a)either to make a bigger 3-bet
b)flat and play postflop ?

well it's not written in stone but the thing is people tend to flat 3bets more when they are deep cause it could be profitable.
So you may very well charge more if they have such a thing in mind.
Cause in the end you could be very well guessing trying to call down a big river bet with just a pair of aces or kings.

With aces I would always try to play for stacks but with kings it may depend.

And this is only my opinion
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
well it's not written in stone but the thing is people tend to flat 3bets more when they are deep cause it could be profitable.
So you may very well charge more if they have such a thing in mind.
Cause in the end you could be very well guessing trying to call down a big river bet with just a pair of aces or kings.

With aces I would always try to play for stacks but with kings it may depend.

And this is only my opinion

I’m of the opinion that whatever our 3b size it should be the same size with our whole range we don’t want to develop bet sizing tells. I tend to 3b ~ 3.0x in position and 3.5x OOP but I’m open to considering other options. But I need better reasoning than “be willing to play for stacks with AA” because obviously I am preflop. I think 3.0 is standard. But bigger could be better. It also makes it tougher to get action and my 3b range is weighted towards value.
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
I’m of the opinion that whatever our 3b size it should be the same size with our whole range we don’t want to develop bet sizing tells.


Effective stack size will change 3bet size, as well it changes opening size (example Hero 200bb eff, opens 5bb BU vs BB) I don’t know the math, but I would guess it aims to get money in OTR. I’m quite sure you do the same when stacks get shallow during tourneys, you make 3 bets a little bit smaller, for sure you tweak opening sizes.


As a separate note, first step for 2NL player is to learn to make bets same size, however the next phase is to optimize winnings. To win as much as you can you need to play as exploitative as you can, this includes choosing the most optimal bet sizing for profit.
 
Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2017
Total posts
3,235
Chips
0
what brave said. This is just a specific open vs a player who is even deeper than us.
We have position + the best starting hand & vs a likely passive player who's pfr is very low. So the v must have a decent holding but you have better so why not take advantage of it & try to get much as possible.

Otherwise if you are concerned about the board playing against you, why not just flat pre flop play accordingly post flop??

I'm also in the same opinion as you but with time I've made some slight changes to my sizings like 3betting bigger vs fish cause they'll call most of the times without any concern for the size, etc.

But once again this is just a small thing but I like to 3bet bigger here specially cause the v is opening 3.5x.
If v is opening 3, I'd go for 10 & 3.5/4 - I'd go for 12,13.
both IP.
You'll notice that even 3.5x oop size is considered small at higher micros & mid stakes.
I've seen some around 2+2 people have no issue calling 4x es
 
Last edited:
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
After 48 hands, you have an aggression frequency that's decently accurate.

Donk bets are generally polarizing. Against fish the bluff part of their range is more AJ, TT type stuff, where they don't know they're bluffing. I'd just call it down, but the fold isn't bad either if stats/reads indicate. The stack to pot ratio is a little high to comfortably stack an over-pair.

Because donk bets are polarizing, raising and folding to a 3-bet is a horrible line.

And yes, 3-bet more because your opponent is a fish.
 
B

Blair29

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Total posts
85
Awards
1
Chips
5
Given villains pre flop raising range I wouldn't say you are ahead of a ton of hands that would play this way. The obvious one is AQ.

Going by the stats I wouldn't expect them to be playing a draw aggressively, and they are probably not opening K10s UTG.

To me the best case scenario is they have AQ, and they don't want you to take a free card on the turn if you have a hand like AK. But seeing as you have 2 of the A's that scenario is less likely.
 
No1eJoker

No1eJoker

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 21, 2017
Total posts
1,877
Awards
14
Chips
0
I don't understand why you fold, what do you think that he have in hand?
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
looks fine to me, fine with 3bet sizing. calling 3 if he bets smaller on the turn
 
P

Papier24

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2017
Total posts
132
Chips
0
Standard and cristal clear call on the turn. This is just super super nitty IMO.
I think you can raise him on the flop but I probably prefer the call because you're in a bad spot when he reraises you.
Would be nice to know his fold to 3bet % though. This is a really important information. And how many hands did you play with villain ?
How many hands did you play with villain ? His Af of 5 suggests that he probably donk bets with some random hands. I think he has many AQ or KQ in his range. Maybe even QTs, AKs, T9s. Really hard to put him on an exact range but his range definetely contains more than just AQ, JJ and QQ.
 
Folding in Poker
Top