$100 NLHE 6-max: Correct line & sizing?

BTN: 422.25 BB
Hero (SB): 106.25 BB
BB: 66.25 BB
UTG: 70.5 BB
CO: 87 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kd Qd
fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 11 BB, fold, BTN calls 8 BB

Flop : (23 BB, 2 players) Qc 2c Kc
Hero bets 8.5 BB, BTN calls 8.5 BB

Turn : (40 BB, 2 players) 9h
Hero bets 22.5 BB, BTN calls 22.5 BB

River : (85 BB, 2 players) 4c
Hero checks, BTN bets 69.5 BB, fold

BTN wins 81 BB

What's the line & what sizing is optimal here?
Don't write essays pls

In preflop a defense from SB to 4bb is recommended being OOP. Postflop sizes are correct.
On the river the options x / c and x / f are very close. But since you block KK and QQ a lower set would not bet here at a very high frequency of times. In addition, Rank V has free nuts (Ac and Jc) for the flush draws + gutshots combos that could be executed as bluffs on this river. Because of this I am more willing to call in this place. The Mdf is 55% so there is not much difference between call and fold on this river.
Greetings.

Actually, the reading we have of the villain depends a lot. We are in a 50/50 situation. Either it has a bluff or the flush has come for V. Without readings we are probably closer to fold. JT may also play check on a high frequency. So mostly bluffs (sets, gutshots) or mediums and high flush scales would increase this river.

gustav197poker said:

Because of this I am more willing to call in this place. The Mdf is 55% so there is not much difference between call and fold on this river.
Greetings.

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Don't think calling river is a good idea . because if he's floating a gutter twice then he should at least have a club, what other bluffs does he have which takes this line?
Even if we add 1 bluff combo there's way too many clubs in his range imo

The other question is what value hands do we play this way to trap check riv?

Alucard said:

Don't think calling river is a good idea . because if he's floating a gutter twice then he should at least have a club, what other bluffs does he have which takes this line?
Even if we add 1 bluff combo there's way too many clubs in his range imo

The other question is what value hands do we play this way to trap check riv?

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50/50. You don't need to risk here if you want to play it safe is an acceptable fold. We are blocking top sets that we could represent in our range of bluff catchers.

gustav197poker said:

50/50. You don't need to risk here if you want to play it safe is an acceptable fold. We are blocking top sets that we could represent in our range of bluff catchers.

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How is it 50/50? It is not. Count his value jams to his bluffs. Most of the time he doesn't have any

Alucard said:

How is it 50/50? It is not. Count his value jams to his bluffs. Most of the time he doesn't have any

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Checking this river you are strengthening your range and neutralizing the villain's bluffs. At this point the low scale sets work mostly as bluffs. Eventually they could bet on the river, but knowing they are behind higher set scales that they cannot block. JT would bet but on a low frequency, the straight is not a good hand now because it is dominated and works better as a defense to a river attack.

gustav197poker said:

Checking this river you are strengthening your range and neutralizing the villain's bluffs. At this point the low scale sets work mostly as bluffs.

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sets beat us. Besides there's only 2s and he'd very much GII it flop or turn

Alucard said:

sets beat us. Besides there's only 2s and he'd very much GII it flop or turn

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In my opinion the villain has flush or does not have it. If I think he don't have it, I'm not folding my top pairs here. I'm not saying we shouldn't be folding here, because it is a very feasible possibility when we do not have well-defined readings of V. I'm just telling what I would do in this situation.

Most of villains raise/defend vs resteal hands are going to be broadways (strong offsuit broadways, or suited broadways). I think it's unlikely that you get to the river and are actually beating anything. If villain is decent here he can be jamming his own KQ hands to fold you off of KQ/KK/QQ.

I think the mistake you made is to bet flop so small. Generally the drier the flop the smaller we can size. The wetter the flop the larger we should size. The problem I have here is that you have very strong, but very susceptible to being drawn out holding. Villain can comfortably draw vs you because you are giving him the right price, even OTT I think you sized it too small.

Let's be frank here, you should be willing to GII OTF/OTT so you should size up accordingly; this accomplishes a number of things, firstly: you get to X/C this river with a much lower SPR and not feel bad about getting exploited, and second; you put him to a tough spot with his KxJc type hands because he will have to decide between calling off a larger portion of his stack as a potential underdog, or folding away his equity (both on the flop and the turn). This should also be balanced by you making the same betsizing with your AcJx type hands in this scenario as well. Essentially any hand you have that has good equity should be looking to play for stacks here to maximise EV and to avoid the difficulties of large SPR decisions on later streets where you turn your hand face up - the exception to this being if you have the nuts and know he will jam his stack in when checked to with a wide range, in which case feel free to play the way you did (I doubt most villains are going to do that though).

I prefer a fold as played, unless you know villain makes extreme plays regularly.

P.S if you prefer to play these spots passively and would, for example, X/C AKo here with the Ac, then you can balance by X/C'ing with your top two here also, as you are protected when the club falls by other portions of your range getting there.

Alucard said:

BTN: 422.25 BB
Hero (SB): 106.25 BB
BB: 66.25 BB
UTG: 70.5 BB
CO: 87 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kd Qd
fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 11 BB, fold, BTN calls 8 BB

Flop : (23 BB, 2 players) Qc 2c Kc
Hero bets 8.5 BB, BTN calls 8.5 BB

Turn : (40 BB, 2 players) 9h
Hero bets 22.5 BB, BTN calls 22.5 BB

River : (85 BB, 2 players) 4c
Hero checks, BTN bets 69.5 BB, fold

BTN wins 81 BB

What's the line & what sizing is optimal here?
Don't write essays pls

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The Preflop

Okay

the postflop

The Flop

I would not c-bet here because Villain doesn't have QQ, KK and never KQ. We are blocking anything so there is a great chance, that given this monotone flop for us to get call only of 22, the flush draws and and flushes themselves.
Even the straights should not be chasing it because of RIO possibilities.

The Turn

It doesn't change anything, unless the fact that it completes a straight but this is the least of our concerns. We should ask ourselves which hands BTN had called on a monotone flop that could continue paying OTT and we don't see any.

The River

Non-sense: since you were not scared of the flushes, you should continue betting and now polarizing your range. When you 3-bet preflop/c-bet 1/3 flop/c-bet 1/2 pot turn and check river it seems you had a lot of airs on your range and experient players might wanna bluff you having just a single combo of diamonds on their ranges.
We do bet to get value from worst hands.
No essay written.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Aballinamion said:

The Preflop

Okay

the postflop

The Flop

I would not c-bet here because Villain doesn't have QQ, KK and never KQ. We are blocking anything so there is a great chance, that given this monotone flop for us to get call only of 22, the flush draws and and flushes themselves.
Even the straights should not be chasing it because of RIO possibilities.

The Turn

It doesn't change anything, unless the fact that it completes a straight but this is the least of our concerns. We should ask ourselves which hands BTN had called on a monotone flop that could continue paying OTT and we don't see any.

The River

Non-sense: since you were not scared of the flushes, you should continue betting and now polarizing your range. When you 3-bet preflop/c-bet 1/3 flop/c-bet 1/2 pot turn and check river it seems you had a lot of airs on your range and experient players might wanna bluff you having just a single combo of diamonds on their ranges.
We do bet to get value from worst hands.
No essay written.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

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Hello Friend. What you say on the river is correct. But also checking can protect the balanced range in postflop. So we expect experienced players to bet strong and we'll call you back with our bluff catcher range. Otherwise I agree to continue betting 3 barrels But I would like to think that villain be a bit more extensive in his rank. Against a less open regular I prefer to load harmless V bluffs for the river.
Ultimately I also consider the line x/f in the river possible, especially when we are dealing with a villain who is a NIT or when we are without the basic readings about his postflop performance.

Hi there, I think your mayor problem was the flop. Even when I would call pre-flop with KQs because is a tricky hand to play OOP unless you know your V.

In a monotone flop you have to define yourself: Do I play like I got the flush or I play vs the flush?

Due to you're OOP with Top 2P and your chance to improve your hand (with FH) is low, I would XR. With XR in flop you test if your V is willing to put money in monotone flop and how much. Also, XR in flop give you the flush appearance. Instead, BC IP in a monotone flop is very bad position to the V to play against. You want to put to your V in an awkward position, so to fire 2 Bar OOP in monotone flop is very easy to float IP, both good and bad players. X in River is even worst because you are saying to your V "please don't bet me this pot is good enough for me".

So, for me, the options are kill this hand quick in flop with XR in flop and if he calls shove in turn because this wasn't a 4 cards flush in turn. That is my humble opinion!

Semi grunch but I agree with some ealier points in the thread. It's a 3 bet pot but we dont HAVE to size 1/3 on every flop. If it was a dry flop that's fine but we have flusd draws and straight draws and pair plus draws that can all continue in position. I'm betting 2/3 on this flop for that reason. And I'm putting the rest in on the turn since it will only be a bit more than pot. If he flopped it or turned it we still have some equity to a boat or quads. As played it's a pretty gross fold but can't see how calling is profitable without some reads.

Alucard said:

BTN: 422.25 BB
Hero (SB): 106.25 BB
BB: 66.25 BB
UTG: 70.5 BB
CO: 87 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kd Qd
fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 11 BB, fold, BTN calls 8 BB

Flop : (23 BB, 2 players) Qc 2c Kc
Hero bets 8.5 BB, BTN calls 8.5 BB

Turn : (40 BB, 2 players) 9h
Hero bets 22.5 BB, BTN calls 22.5 BB

River : (85 BB, 2 players) 4c
Hero checks, BTN bets 69.5 BB, fold

BTN wins 81 BB

What's the line & what sizing is optimal here?
Don't write essays pls

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On a single suit flop where I don’t hold that suit I’m always checking OOP. There’s 1 street of value here and the flop isn’t the one unless there’s a huge amount already in the middle (3bet/4bet pot) that I need to try and take down. The turn is the place I find most effective.

My line would be check-call flop, lead bet the turn (when not a club) for 2/3rd pot, check-call or check-fold the river depending on what comes out, read on villain and their sizing.

As played here I’m folding the river


Essay / explainer below.