Trouble in Late Stages of Tournies

I need some advice on transitioning my game in the later stages of a tournament. I normally run about 15/10 and this seems to work well. With low blinds and full tables I consistently build a stack. But.....

...when the blinds get larger and my M goes down (i.e. final table in a 90 person tourny or at near the bubble on a single) I start to run into trouble.

Alot of the time I will end up overplaying hands like AQ, AJs or middle pairs preflop and then, feeling pot committed becase of my low(ish) M, I end up all in with these hands. This is how I end up going out of most tournaments.

Am I incorrect in loosening up my raising/calling requirements with a lower M? Am I being overly aggressive?



An quick example hand (sorry no hand history so I'll keep it short)

Final table of 90 person tourny. Blinds 750/1500.
8 players at table and Hero is UTG +2 with 14,000 chips.

Dealt to Hero (Ad, Qd)
2 folds.
Hero raises to 4500.
UTG +3 raises to 23000 and is all in.
Everyone folds.
Hero calls and loses to AK.

My thought process is that everyone was playing fairly tight and I was hoping to pick up the blinds with a raise. When villian goes all in I realize I am pot committed and call.

Am I overplaying this hand? Do I raise more/less? Fold to the allin?

Edit: I will usually play hands like 77-JJ just like I played this one. Even lower pairs sometimes. AJ I may have folded here, not sure (?) ***This is not my normal playing style early, just late when my M gets low.

Thanks for any input.

You're short stacked considering your less than 10 BB. In your position I would shove my stack preflop because the standard 3x bet would make pot committed if they villain decides to raise. This way, you're putting the most pressure against the villain with your all in.

That was the right call because you were pot committed, but again, you're preflop player could of be improved by my suggestion. This is how SnG and tournament works man. With AQ, you would be called with hands as bad as A rag, KJ+, Pocket Pair. It was just unfortunate that you were behind.

Of course this is just general play, depending on the strucutre, players playing styles, reads, position, and your place in the tourney, the play can be altered.

I would have done the same thing the only thing is bad position but I think its just unfortunate timing I dont see many players laying A-Qs down

You really can't overplay hands with less than 20BBs and the lower you go in terms of BBs its moer or less impossible to misplay hands such as big aces and medium pairs, maybe you should try upping the aggression before you get shortstacked as then your bets will get more respect as villains will realise you have a stack worth "looking after" this is a good strategy to become one of the big stacks towards the end of the tourney, which in turn gives you the best chance to win (or come close).

Toad,

I think you may be suffering from chip anxiety.
If this 90 person tourney started with 1500 chips, then the chip average is 16,875 with 8 people left. The fact that you have less than 10 BB makes no difference because so does everyone else!

You are slightly less than the chip average and there is no real need for you to be pushing all your chips in on a hand as mediocre as AQ, especially since less inferior hands held by shorter stacks or monster stacks are going to call.

The correct strategy when you are close to the money and you hold close to the chip average is to let the players bust each other out.

If you find it necessary to win a pot to stay above the chip average, you need to use position to do so.

The psychology of a tourney when you are close to the money is everyone tightens up, therefore if you find an opportunity like on the button or in the hijack to steal the blinds, it is far better than making a play in early position with AQ.

Hope this helps!
Good Luck
Jon

In the above example I was already ITM. With the blinds as large as they were (plus a $100 or so ante) I dont have much time left to make a move. I've tried to wait around for other players to know each other out in the past, but more often than not I just end up blinding myself down to such a short stack that I dont have any fold equity with my eventual push.

I like the idea of pushing better than my 3x raise. Since I'm already ITM my goal is to win...if I push and get called by a better hand so be it.

I'll try being more aggressive and see how it goes.

The hand in OP is a standard ship. You really want small pocket pairs folding rather than shoving over you thinking they have fold equity. AQs is a monster here and you are never getting away without a soul read.

jons64gm said:

Toad,

I think you may be suffering from chip anxiety.
If this 90 person tourney started with 1500 chips, then the chip average is 16,875 with 8 people left. The fact that you have less than 10 BB makes no difference because so does everyone else!

Click to expand...

It makes all the difference in the world as to how wide you shove.

jons64gm said:

You are slightly less than the chip average and there is no real need for you to be pushing all your chips in on a hand as mediocre as AQ, especially since less inferior hands held by shorter stacks or monster stacks are going to call.

Click to expand...

AQs is a monster here. Any play that involves folding is pretty bad. I'm not sure if you meant inferior or less inferior but you want any inferior hand to call here regardless of whether or not it is the bubble.

jons64gm said:

The correct strategy when you are close to the money and you hold close to the chip average is to let the players bust each other out.

Click to expand...

The correct strategy is to try to chip up and shoot for a top finish.

jons64gm said:

If you find it necessary to win a pot to stay above the chip average, you need to use position to do so.

Click to expand...

Being in position is much less relevant when stacks are this short.

jons64gm said:

The psychology of a tourney when you are close to the money is everyone tightens up, therefore if you find an opportunity like on the button or in the hijack to steal the blinds, it is far better than making a play in early position with AQ.

Hope this helps!
Good Luck
Jon

Click to expand...

This is good advice when the effective stack sizes are larger. I tend to be overly critical so don't take this as a hit. Welcome to the forums

Playing the shortstack

When you are play the short stack you should never limp in, that is completely against the rules, if you are short on chips say 5 or 6 bb's its shuv or fold however if you have say 15, 20 bb's left you need to pick your hands carefully and play your position, especially if the other players at the table are loose.
Hope this helps
adsthepro

Yeah, I usually start to shove when I get below 10 BB and if its a top 8 hand. If i have more I play my the position I have and it also depends on the cards of course. It also helps to know the type of people you are playing against (Tight, aggressive, etc).

Cheers

AQ is a monster SS to shove. Big stacks are likely to call u with A3, A9, AJ. Sometimes KQ OJ which u dominate! Nightmare when a big stack calls with a PP and u have to catch to save ur tourney life. But thats the thrill i live for!!

I found the following to be extremely helpful for Final Table play:

https://www.cardschat.com/fourhanded-sit-go-strategy.php

https://www.cardschat.com/fourhanded-sit-go-strategy-2.php

GL.

ya...i agreed that it's better to wait for other players to bust out rather than putting all the chips in the early position...it's not worth to play in the cards which are too risky in the last stage...it's more important to survive until last when playing in tournaments...

I have the same problem as toad, maybe worse. I cant seem to make it past the mid/late stages of any tourney. I am basically a tight player but I have been doing more reading/studying poker theory and my game has gotten worse towards the end of tourneys. My early and middle games have improved tenfold, and I find myself in great stack position only to lose it at or near the bubble. It seems I always play the wrong hands at the wrong time when the blinds are at large amounts 2k/4k,3k/6k etc. This is when I fall apart. I'm starting to think the big numbers [bets] are throwing my thinking off. I have won tournaments and cashed many in the past, but now it seems my study has hurt my end game!

Following my 10/10 rule, with 10 blinds and a top 10 hands that is an automatic push, everytime.

I think you should loosen up your raising pre flop hands even more to be honest with you it is your calling looseness that really gets to me at this point you have to be really tight when it comes to calling as you have finally hit the part in the tourney with the decent players raising with real hands. You have to steal steal steal blinds if they pop you ya can lay it down or pop them back with a nice hand and make them pay when you do have a nice hand. Dont put youself in those marginal situations where you dont know what to do and if you are uncomfortable I suggest nit it up and wait for great hand to just shoe all in.

Agreed that AQ is a monster in this spot, snap shove for me if I'm < 10bb.

When you're getting this short, you really should be playing shove or fold. No 3x raising here (and certainly no limping) unless you're trying to slowplay AA to eke out some extra value or attract a shove instead of folding everyone out, but I'm typically just shoving there too.

When you're playing shove or fold poker, position has much less relevance because there's no post-flop decisions. You may not want to shove light into heavy action in front of you, but depending on my reads and the raiser's stack sizes, I might shove into them anyway (certainly if I'm tasting felt). If I'm first to act or behind limpers then I'm usually open-shoving with middle pair and 2 paint cards, or shoving behind with any big pair or AK/AQ, no matter my position.

Am I incorrect in loosening up my raising/calling requirements with a lower M? Am I being overly aggressive?

Click to expand...

No, that's the whole idea. You generally start out tight. Maybe see a lot of cheap flops when the blinds are low, and practice good pot control when you do get involved. But as the blinds increase, you have to loosen up or be eaten away. I suggest you read up on Harrington's concept of inflection points (vol 2 of HoH). When your M enters the yellow (10-20) and orange (5-10) zones, you stop playing baby pairs and small suited connectors, but otherwise open up your starting range and ramp up your aggression more than usual (unless you're already a maniac). Then should you fall into the red zone, you go back to shoving any pair again. Of course like anything else in poker, you also have to consider all the usual factors (table image, stack sizes, etc.) and adjust accordingly.

Oh, and don't be results oriented. If you always strive to make the +EV play, then you will win in the long run.

bazerk said:

I found the following to be extremely helpful for Final Table play:

https://www.cardschat.com/fourhanded-sit-go-strategy.php

https://www.cardschat.com/fourhanded-sit-go-strategy-2.php

GL.

Click to expand...

Great articles. Thanks!

dmorris68 said:

Agreed that AQ is a monster in this spot, snap shove for me if I'm < 10bb.
I suggest you read up on Harrington's concept of inflection points (vol 2 of HoH). When your M enters the yellow (10-20) and orange (5-10) zones, you stop playing baby pairs and small suited connectors, but otherwise open up your starting range and ramp up your aggression more than usual (unless you're already a maniac). Then should you fall into the red zone, you go back to shoving any pair again. .

Click to expand...

Funny you said that...I just started reading HoH Vol 2 a few days ago.

In this kind of tournament where the blinds are 1k -1.5k at the final table where the medium stack is 16k you are not playing poker anymore. U just have to be patient and have some luck or the first mistake is the last. Try to steal the blinds but only when u have the spot. If u don't get cards just w8 for other players to challenge each other. Remember , at that stage nobody is limping with nothing. If u have the button and nobody raises before u should risk sometimes. This is pocker. If i have AQ in early position and there are 9 players at the table i'll fold cose any pair will challenge me or badly .. AK. If i have AQ and i am near the button and nobody raised ... i'll tripple the blind. I am not going all in because i do not want to leave the game at that spot if somebody is getting lucky. But if i am at the button and one of the blinds is going all in after i raise with AQ, i'll call . I have the position and is a very big chance that the blinds will think i'll try to bluff them.

I would say you have given a bad example as the play you made was the right one. Okay you got caught by the AK but with the possible exception of your position I think you played the hand okay.

When tourneys get to the final stages the game changes and you have to change with it. Short stacks are going to push with hands that they would not have played with earlier in the tourney.

An awful lot depends on the read you have on the other guys.

Tom1559 said:

I would say you have given a bad example as the play you made was the right one. Okay you got caught by the AK but with the possible exception of your position I think you played the hand okay.

When tourneys get to the final stages the game changes and you have to change with it. Short stacks are going to push with hands that they would not have played with earlier in the tourney.

An awful lot depends on the read you have on the other guys.

Click to expand...

That was just the most recent example I could think of...there are plenty of others. I guess the underlying theme is that I tend to end up all in in similar situations alot of the time...when I win I'm in great shape, but when I lose I'm done.

After reading some of the suggestions above, I think I have been a little too passive. Raising 3X BB in the above example doesnt give me much fold equity.

I know there is no way the guy on my left is laying down AK and that I lose this hand anyway (so yes the example is not a great one), but if I play 100 hands in the same type of situation it seems +EV to push rather than come in with a small raise that is begging to be called or reraised by a bigger stack.

Some of the stuff Jon said I agree with and imo you did over play the AQ because I consider those pocket cards #9/10 on my list and after buddy made that huge raise that would of told me he had something. Don't worry too much about how many chips you have left as long as you're in the game you're still good so just wait for the cards then push all-in or wait for a nice postion play. Good luck man.