How often do you really fold big pairs?

T

Tonawanda

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Busted out of last four MTT's in the $1 to $5 range with JJ,JJ,JJ,QQ, all pre-flop. (2 bad beats, 2 second best hands). Been reading the interesting posts on folding AA recently. I know it all depends on many different circumstances similar to the ones discussed on folding AA. My question is: Irregardless of the circumstances, how many of you here in the forum really fold big pairs on a somewhat regular basis. In these four tourneys, I probably had over 10 all-in challenges for all my chips. 6 out 10 wins is an unbelievable batting average, but doesn't win you any tournaments. I know almost all of you have folded big hands, but really the question is, how often?
 
suit2please

suit2please

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Its not too hard to get away from Jacks and Queens after you've seen some cards and had some betting, especially when the overcards show up on the flop and you got players who play any Ace in hand. Last night i got screwed by pocket Kings, short stacked, 3 bet all in to get called by AKo and the first card out is an Ace of course.
 
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paumarhas

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when ever i need to or not too stubborn to realize i'm beat.

i don't think i could give you a number or percentage, or even guess. it's hard to say and i don't think anyone can give you that answer, unless they're keeping track.

they're definately hard to fold since i've beaten opp's who won't, when they're too stubborn to fold. i've done it also and learning to back off.
hope you find your answers and gl.
 
doops

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I try, if possible, not to go all-in preflop with those big PPs. It's easier to fold JJ, TT and maybe QQ to a preflop allin. But it depends on my stack size -- very big or very small means I will call an all-in reraise (to my earlier raise). It also depends on the other player and his range and aggression factors.

Yes, those big PPs (and AK) are the hands that I am generally holding when I bust. Naturally so, because those are the hands I will be most likely to have been all-in with preflop. Doh! (I hardly ever bust out with 7-2, but that doesn't make them better. It only means that I fold garbage.) I think most people bust out of tourneys with good hands....

Bottom line is to try to avoid playing bingo even with big PPs. Yes they are +EV, but they are not sure things. I'm not saying don't do it ever, because that would be silly. But cut down on the all-ins and you will bust out....later. :D
 
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Kasanova King

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Really depends on stack size and who your opponent is. Short stacked, 15 bb or less, it's a no brainer, shove with JJ or higher pre-flop. Medium stacked, you probably fold JJ to an all in bet, especially to a larger stack.

QQ are trickier, depending on your opponent & stack size, if you're short - shove. Medium probably shove, unless your opponent is large stacked and is a nit. If you're large stacked shove every time vs short stacks, shove most of the time vs medium stacks. Proceed with caution vs other large stacks - against a TAG, probably fold, LAG/Maniac shove.

KK - not too many reasons to ever fold KK preflop - the only one I can think of if there are 2+ all ins before you act or if you are on the bubble, facing an all in from a good player. Other than that, it's usually safe to shove with KK pre-flop, there's only one hand in the entire deck that you would be behind on, and you still have about a 20% chance to beat that one too :)

AA, the only possible reason to ever fold AA is if you are a medium stack, facing 2+ larger stacks all in before you. Other than that, shove with AA any stack size, any position, any opponent.
 
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dan

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I used to fold them more often but I play them more because everyone is a maniac these days
I used to win more often? everything depends on whats happening at the time JJ QQ can be hard to play
 
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TheWall

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Kasanova King said:
Really depends on stack size and who your opponent is. Short stacked, 15 bb or less, it's a no brainer, shove with JJ or higher pre-flop. Medium stacked, you probably fold JJ to an all in bet, especially to a larger stack.

QQ are trickier, depending on your opponent & stack size, if you're short - shove. Medium probably shove, unless your opponent is large stacked and is a nit. If you're large stacked shove every time vs short stacks, shove most of the time vs medium stacks. Proceed with caution vs other large stacks - against a TAG, probably fold, LAG/Maniac shove.

KK - not too many reasons to ever fold KK preflop - the only one I can think of if there are 2+ all ins before you act or if you are on the bubble, facing an all in from a good player. Other than that, it's usually safe to shove with KK pre-flop, there's only one hand in the entire deck that you would be behind on, and you still have about a 20% chance to beat that one too :)

AA, the only possible reason to ever fold AA is if you are a medium stack, facing 2+ larger stacks all in before you. Other than that, shove with AA any stack size, any position, any opponent.
Click to expand...

Why is that a reason to fold AA, seems like a fist pump. The only reason to fold AA is if your in a satellite and your close to making the money with a solid stack.
 
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Roger1960

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I find it not too hard to fold JJ, TT, sometimes QQ. I hate folding KK, I will fold if an A hits the flop, or cbet and see what happens. Too many fools playing Arag like it is something. It also depends on position and how many people are in the hand before me. I don't go all in preflop at all unless I am extremely short stacked. I would rather play poker.
 
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JEP712

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I play SnG. Mostly STT, and sometimes MTT. During STT, I'll never fold KK or AA. For QQ and JJ, this is how I would handle following situation:

Where more than 2 players raise, then re-raise, then followed by an all in.
(I would re-raise after the first bet, if I get re-raised by a super tight player, I would fold JJ and QQ, but if it's from a normal player, I would just make a call with JJ QQ. After the re-raise all in, I would of got out of there with either JJ and QQ.)

If the villain that raised all in have a stack that would bust me, I would fold.
If I wasn't pot committed, I would fold.


All this is pretty general for me. Every situation is a bit different. Try posting a exact situation of what you experienced and I'll try to help you out a bit more on that.
 
Exit141RTe1

Exit141RTe1

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Hard to get away for most of the big pair. I will agree with the guys above, JJ and at times QQ are easily folded with over cards on the board. Lately I have been getting killed with KK and AA not holding up, with the exception of an allin by Debie in Tuesday's FR. Loved it! :D

I still believe over the long run you will win with any of these hands.
 
Kasanova King

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TheWall said:
Why is that a reason to fold AA, seems like a fist pump. The only reason to fold AA is if your in a satellite and your close to making the money with a solid stack.
Click to expand...


It usually is a fist pump as long as you have them covered. If not, you are risking your tournament life on a hand that you have about a 60% chance of winning against 2 opponents, even less if there are more involved. AA are only 80% + against 1 opponent.

I would shove with them anyways b/c a better than average shot of a triple up is good enough for me. I have never folded AA in my life in a cash game and only one other time in a satelite tourney, a very similar situation as what you described.
 
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Tonawanda

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Thanks to all the members who responded. Several very good responses that should be very beneficial to me. Its more obvious to me now that folding these types of hands when necessary is the correct play. I was starting to realize it myself, but the information and confirmation from the experienced members who responded was more than I expected. Thanks again for the help!
 
LuckyChippy

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Folding JJ/QQ pre-flop is standard sometimes most people don't 5-bet shove with 1010. I prefer calling with QQ though unless he's a super nit. I never fold KK or AA. Cash obviously.
 
DaveE

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JEP712 said:
I play SnG. Mostly STT, and sometimes MTT. During STT, I'll never fold KK or AA. For QQ and JJ, this is how I would handle following situation:

Where more than 2 players raise, then re-raise, then followed by an all in.
(I would re-raise after the first bet, if I get re-raised by a super tight player, I would fold JJ and QQ, but if it's from a normal player, I would just make a call with JJ QQ. After the re-raise all in, I would of got out of there with either JJ and QQ.)

If the villain that raised all in have a stack that would bust me, I would fold.
If I wasn't pot committed, I would fold.


All this is pretty general for me. Every situation is a bit different. Try posting a exact situation of what you experienced and I'll try to help you out a bit more on that.
Click to expand...

^^Pretty much sums up my preflop play.
 
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AA 1/1300 when I am in 1 spot from cash and every1 get same cash and I have a big stack I just fold even aces I will cash 99% of the time anyway so its not worth because if I get unlucky and lose the pot my 99% will drop considerably
KK 1/225 I have folded Kings two to four times of the ones I can found my opponents hand I was correct once and wrong once
QQ 1/80 If I reraise and someone reraises me and the inital raiser raises again I think you must fold this hand
JJ 1/50 In tournaments this is just not a tough fold early on many players like to push with AK and its just not worth flipping for the whole tourney so early, cash games I will be really aggresive pre-flop with this hand (only folding if I believe my opponent has a bigger pair)and cautious post

p.s i have no idea if these numbers are correct its just maybe what i think its close to off the top of my head :confused: but the info is what counts!:deal:
 
Sintubai

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depends on which level is the tournament, and the pace that the players are on the table .. but I believe that big pairs AA and KK, is a good time to take risks, knowing the risk. have QQ and JJ is much more dangerous, and often left an A or K, is often difficult Pool have continued betting with confidence .. percentage does not take much into consideration, I think the more time that the game is. gl!
 
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LukeSilver

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I've folded pre flop QQ enough times in Mtts and folded kK pre flop only twice in my entire time online pre flop in Mtts that weren't satellites. Both times I was right and the guy Had AA. One of those two times K flopped so would have won anyway, but made the right decision so meh. Fold if you think you are behind or marginal if you think your ahead go for it unless its a satellite.I never fold AA unless satellite on bubble and critical to my stack.
 
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leon818

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fold big pair whenever you play againist chipleader, as the site most likely make the chipleader win. that just what i found from my pass experience.
 
dantheman91

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I think it depends on alot of different situations. I.E. My chip stack compared to the average, my chip stack compared to the other guys' chip stacks, But, I play alot of cheap small tubo SNGs, so generally I'm willing to go all in with most high pocket pairs because I just don't have enough time to gather a chip stack to win the SNG. But, in tournament play I don't find it too hard to get away from QQ- but KK is almost impossible for me to get away from PF.
 
LuckyChippy

LuckyChippy

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leon818 said:
fold big pair whenever you play againist chipleader, as the site most likely make the chipleader win. that just what i found from my pass experience.
Click to expand...

Lol. People like you make my day. You play 300 hands in your life and assume poker is rigged. I only hope you keep playing.
 
Weregoat

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Folding big PP preflop can be a tough decision - you have to look at player stats and think chip stacks and everything, not just your cards. If I've 100 hands of history on an opponent from this table and he's super tight I have to give him credit for a hand here. Easy to lay down QQ.

One thing about when you are deep stacked in cash games, is if the raises are pot appropriate you can always call. Worst case scenario an A comes, but so does your set card, and it's set over set. Best case scenario your set cards comes and you're good. Somewhere in between? An A comes and you know you're beat and can fold.

Folding preflop isn't always easy to do. If anybody has the hand where Doyle folds QQ to KK on the a flop that QQ would be golden . . . I like to think of that as an excellent play, and hope I can at some point in my table life make the same good read and have the discipline to lay it down, instead of 6 betting all-in pre as I'd probably do.
 
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BenLZ

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I've never folded KK or AA preflop. I've folded QQ once, but it was a bad fold although there were 2 all ins in front of me in the cash game. I would have won. One guy played TT like it was AA and I got intimidated. I'll never get away from AA v. KK but I can fold QQ.
 
salim271

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QQ, JJ, AK (suited or otherwise) should only be all in preflop if you're shortstacked, otherwise raise and try and see a flop, cbet if there's overcards or not. (or you didnt hit an Ace or a king), if you get re-raised when there are overcards, then fold. If called then raised on the turn, you should also fold.
 
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