This is a discussion on Top 10 Trouble Starting Hands within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; I read an article the other day about some starting hands are know as toruble hands and reasons why. Here are those trouble hands and
I read an article the other day about some starting hands are know as toruble hands and reasons why. Here are those trouble hands and reasons why as listed by the article:
• J-8 — The trouble with this hand comes when the flop is Q-10-9, giving you the second-best straight. If an opponent is playing K-J, a hand most players would, you're simply doomed to lose everything you have.
• A-10 — This doesn't fare nearly so well in Texas Hold'em. Here's the problem: If you happen to catch another ace on the flop, A-K, A-Q and A-J will all have you beat. Add to that, if the flop comes A-7-4, for example, you'll lose to A-7, A-4, A-A, 7-7 and 4-4. The only time you can really feel safe with A-10 is when you flop two pair or make a straight.
• K-Q — It looks like a powerful hand, but you have to be careful with this one. While K-Q will be OK much of the time, if someone has raised the pot in front of you, he may hold A-A, K-K, Q-Q, A-K or A-Q. Your hand is dominated. If the flop is Q-7-2, you'll have a powerful pair with a powerful kicker, but you'll also be trapped. Now you're forced to put more money in the pot and are doomed against Q-Q, K-K, A-A or A-Q.
• A-x suited — These hands look appealing because they're two parts of a powerful ace-high flush. Be careful, though, not to fall in love with drawing hands in No Limit, as you'll often be forced to pay an all-in bet to try to complete the flush. Another problem with this hand: if you're playing Ah-6h and flop an ace, your kicker will usually lose to anyone else who is also playing an ace.
• K-10 — It's just not a strong hand and should be folded in the face of a raise. If you catch a king on the flop, you have to worry about kicker trouble, and if you flop the 10 you'll have to worry about A-10 and all of the overpairs: J-J, Q-Q, K-K and A-A.
• A-J — Here's another hand that's ideal for winning small pots but destined to lose big ones unless you make a straight, flush or two pair. If the flop comes, say, A-8-3, and your opponent makes a big bet, you'll be forced to play the guessing game. Does he have A-K or A-Q? Did he flop two pair or maybe three of a kind? Unfortunately, with A-J you'll often be guessing more and winning less.
• Q-9 — The problem here is the same you faced with the J-8. When a flop comes K-J-10, you'll be doomed to lose all of your money to a player with A-Q. On top of that, if you hit your pair of queens your kicker will almost surely be beat.
• K-J — This is known as the rookie hand. It seems too good to fold, but not quite strong enough to raise with. As a general No Limit Hold'em rule, if it's not good enough to raise with, then it's not good enough to call with. The big problem with the K-J is that it's dominated by too many hands your opponents would likely play: A-A, K-K, Q-Q, J-J, A-K and A-J.
• J-J — It's the fourth-best pocket pair in the deck, but when someone else puts it all-in against you, the decision with pocket jacks is excruciating. Even if you call correctly, and your opponent has a hand like A-K, you'll still only win the pot a little more than half the time. If you guess wrong, and your opponent is holding Q-Q, K-Kor A-A, well, then you're a 4-to-1 underdog.
• A-Q — Ask any pro what hand they hate most and A-Q will be right at the top of the list. Why? Well, because it is a strong hand in most situations, but when you're up against the dreaded A-K you'll be almost a 3-to-1 underdog to win the pot.
Most of these I would agree with but what do you think?
16th January 2006, 6:19 PM
Online Poker at: Interpoker
Game: Omaha, Stud
I completely agree with you. These hands are hands you often play, but not hands you want to see a showdown with. You want to take the pot down right after the flop.
I would also add hands like QT and QJ to the list. It has the same problems as KJ, although the straight possibilities are good.
16th January 2006, 6:21 PM
Poker at: pokerstars
Hmmm interesting post. So lets looks at what its actually saying.
Play AA,KK, AK and QQ everything else can get you in trouble. Very very true, but I feel that out of the above hands the vast majority are playable, especially in late position. Of course on the flop things need to be re-evaluated. But you also need to re-evaluate where you stand even when your holding AA.
I feel that the majority of these articles are designed to teach people how to play extremly safely and cautiously. When your learn your game the majority of these hands are very playable.
Ok so you raise with JJ from the cut-off and you get one caller say for example the BB. The flop comes A,2,8 and he comes out firing, then you KNOW your beat the majority of the time so you can safely fold. Holdem is a game designed to be played on the flop, ok your raise will thin the field pre-flop, but its on the flop that your decisions have to be made.
Out of all the above hands, J8 and Q9 and the Ax suited are the ones im folding (and not all the time either), im playing everything else up there, (situations will always change that) you simpy cannot wait for AA.
16th January 2006, 7:58 PM
Online Poker at: poker stars
I agree with tenbob i guess lol
i dont like this article at all its kinda making it seem like u shouldnt play with ace ten or jack jack and all those other semi good hands...
there better then the q 5, k 7, 8 5 ... and so on random cards we get
16th January 2006, 8:40 PM
Count DeMoney 
Poker at: UB & Party
re: Poker & Top 10 Trouble Starting Hands
Originally Posted by t1riel
• A-Q — Ask any pro what hand they hate most and A-Q will be right at the top of the list.
Well I agree with this one. It's not called "The Grim Reaper" for nothing!
16th January 2006, 8:58 PM
Online Poker at: poker stars
its also called "Big Chick" lol
16th January 2006, 9:04 PM
Poker at: FullTilt +
I really enjoyed both sides of the discussion about these hands! Great thoughts to consider before making a decision about holding or folding!
16th January 2006, 9:12 PM
Online Poker at: PrizesPoker
Nice ideas on these hands. I'll also have agree. A-Q is also called the Doyle hand from years ago since Doyle says it's a hand he tries NEVER to play. Troubled hands is a great handle put on these hands. Both sides have merit and I do play some hands on instinct/ gut feeling. Some hands look better and feel better pre-flop....................Rock
16th January 2006, 9:17 PM
Agree with alot especially what ten says.. but if you have A,J suited..
Here would be the question.. you mentioned say perhaps the flop drops if you're playing Ah-6h and flop an ace, your kicker will usually lose to anyone else who is also playing an ace
If you are late position and no pre flop raise has been done, you see a rainbow flop.. bet the A,J.. if it has 4 cards to your flush along with top pair, again bet it. Yes I'll agree some of those cards are hard to play but not impossible.. Like K,Q.. not many slow play AA's, KK's, QQ's. AK or AQ.. the norm is to pre flop raise with those hands. Not saying it safe to assume that those hands aren't being slow played but if the flop shows Q,6,7 rainbow then by all means bet and see where you stand.
16th January 2006, 10:49 PM
Online Poker at: Party
re: Poker & Top 10 Trouble Starting Hands
The list is pretty good but doesn't take position and/or situation into account. Also it doesn't say if this is for tournament or cash game play and the two imo are very different.
Also I don't agree with the JJ being on there. That is a very powerful hand and I know alot of people on this site have posted about it being very tricky and dangerous but the hand will make money in the long run.
17th January 2006, 1:43 AM
Poker at: Stars
Game: NLHE, Omaha
I agree that the list doesn't take position and chip stacks and such into account, let alone pre- vs. post-flop play, but to me the point is well taken.
As I read it, these are just the hands that can get you in trouble. I don't think t1riel is saying don't play them, but play with caution... which one could interpret as "save for late position and depending on the betting so far in the hand", "when you chip stack allows it", "if your post-flop play is good enough to support it", or even "play it, but be really ready to fold after the flop".
Personally, I find it a great exercise to consider the hands that typically lead to my own downfall; not to villainize these hands, but simply to figure out why I play them wrong and what I can do differently.
17th January 2006, 3:08 AM
Kenzie 96 [11,258]
Online Poker at: pokerstars
The hands in this article are the sort of hands you consistently see players losing with early in the $2 to $10 sit & go's I normally play, usually followed by *******ing site, or lucky SOB. The point being that inexperienced players really do not think that much about the potential afterflop value of their starting hands, actually many don't think about it after the flop either. I feel that being able to recognize the potential weakness in these hands is one of the big advantages that an experienced player, such as myself has. Just wish I would recognize them before getting overly involved in pots with some of the sharks on this site. LOL. These are I believe the sort of articles & posts that most benefit the majority of members of this site. Thanks, & keep 'em coming.
17th January 2006, 3:12 AM
Poker at: Stars
Game: NLHE, Omaha
That's what they say, right? The best hand is a great hand, but the second-best hand is the worst hand, because it will lose you the most money.
I agree that you see a lot of that behaviour at the low-buy-in tourneys, including Sit 'n Go's. As you say, though, that's good right?
18th January 2006, 5:16 AM
Online Poker at: Live, PS, FT
Game: PL&NL Holdem
Poker is a game of situational variance. What is the third best hand one time will win in another. The articles point is that it shows the common pitfalls for these 10 hands that can happen. How many people thought out why these hands are marginal in the first place. Of course there are times when I will raise with some of those hands and others when I can't get them away from me fast enough. There are some on the list that I never really consider playing in any position.
I agree with most but the couple of things that look good can burn you bad,I use to think AA was a mighty fine hand till you get busted with 2 small pair. You all make good points here.
18th January 2006, 6:50 PM
I would say that the three biggest trouble hands are ak, aq, and aj in that order from most troublesome to least after seeing the flop and not hitting.
20th January 2006, 7:07 PM
Poker at: Pokerstars
Part of the trouble is in how you are as a player. AK isnt a trouble hand if you don't mind laying it down after missing the flop. Lots of people feel that they have to hold on to AK no matter what, even if the flop is all rags and they are being bet into. The reason they are called trouble hands is because they can lose you a lot of money, but if you have no trouble folding these hands then they are not trouble hands to you. Also don't be scared to bet with these hands post flop, especially if you showed strength preflop.
21st January 2006, 1:00 PM
Online Poker at: party poker
I completely agree with you.
I would also add hands QQ.
Because i really lose more then 80% of that hand.
And if an opponent is playing A or K , it is a chance of 32.43 % to hit one of this card on the FLOP u will lose. I think the best options for me is to fold whend a have QQ