kkvs Your QQ

You get re-raised preflop but you want to see a flop with queens, if flop is all low cards can you get away from queens?


I know AA vs KK you cant help but lose all your chips. But is QQ the same? If u have an over pair to the board QQ you shove he calls with KK what can you do?

This depends on a lot of factors. What are the chip stacks? What format are you playing? What are your opps stats? What is your table image? Is the flop wet or dry?

In general the answer is no it's difficult to fold these once the flop is all under cards to your QQ. I ran QQ into KK just yesterday for all my stack at 2NL so this is topical. However I'm sure I won't be the last to say that the true answer is - it depends. Specifically it depends on:

a) Kind of game you're playing. Are you in a tournament and short / large stacked? What stage of the tourney are you at?
b) Who's the villain? Are they playing nitty (so you know they really have something) or loose, passive etc? What's their stack position? Have they bluffed you previously?
c) Other factors - only one opponent in hand or others? Potential drawing hands from the flop?

Am sure others will think of more but those are my initial thoughts.

Depends on alot. Generally if tourney-style you might want to consider pot-control (ie. do you figure by shoving the flop you're going to get better hands to fold or worse hands to call?.... why are we shoving the flop?)

ie. had JJ run into QQ today. I think I lost the minimum. I led out on the flop (out of pos.)... was called by intial raiser (3-way). Turn went check-check... then I put out a defensive bet on the river (pricing my own river)... of around 1/4pot & villain called with QQ (had I checked the river... how much would I have been willing to call?.... so instead I led out with a defensive bet of ~1/4pot (< player dependant), hopefully losing the minimum (tourney-style... sometimes winnning = just 'not losing').

Have to be very deep and against an opponent who wont put all of their chips in with less than KK+.

Live I think you can fold even with a fairly short effective stack based on reads but online you just don't have enough information to put them on KK+, even against a 4bet range of 3% (JJ+, AK) you're still a coinflip.

Once the stacks start approaching 200bb I think it starts becoming correct to be thinking about pot control.

All of this applies to cash and not tournaments where it can be correct to fold even with relatively short stacks.

It's weird I can't get my poker tracker to work at my live games.

=P

I look forward to one day having the discipline to lay down an over pair when I think I'm beat. Ussually I try to bluff them off, or legitimately think I'm good.

I always pay them though. It's a leak I'm looking to plug, because it ussually costs my stack.

Thank you guys for the input, im going to utilize pot control. I guess im playing my QQ like its KK. I just dont like to check the turn and let that guy with A-Q catch his Ace on the river.

yeah a monster hand but ..... I lost AA vs AA vs 99 vs 33 and 3 are $ 25 river
It's hard when you lose a lot of luck still a monster hand and you can say and how many chips you were blind and others or if you were to cash success

Poker Orifice said:

Depends on alot. Generally if tourney-style you might want to consider pot-control (ie. do you figure by shoving the flop you're going to get better hands to fold or worse hands to call?.... why are we shoving the flop?)

Click to expand...

Generally your posts are spot on, but this seems questionable. Pot control with QQ?

The only hands that beat you are almost always betting/raising on every street, the only way you can expect to not be getting a massive chunk of your stack in by the river when against a bigger hand is against KK on an ace flop.

Maybe if we were talking cash games then we could be deep enough to play for pot control but with shorter stacks it seems better to either fold or play it fast. If you try to pot control AA/KK is usually forcing you all in by the river anyway, but AK and JJ will let you pot control, better to make that entire range get it in.

This seems most logical, unless I'm overlooking something.

I would think not only KK vs AA, but any two side by side pockets like JJ vs QQ, 66 vs 77, should be thought and played in the same strategy...
Only difference is from AA to QQ, one can shove , and from JJ to 55 i recommend only bets, calls and never allins...And for low pairs, only calls or folds preflop...
That my strategy..