JJ on a Qxx flop

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Millie232

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I found myself in an interesting spot that I find myself in quite regularly today, so I figured I would ask for advice on what is the correct decision in these situations. The hand is as follows:

Hero (CO): 129 BB
BTN: 107.5 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 5.77, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, hands: 53)
SB: 99 BB (VPIP: 16.28, PFR: 6.98, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 44)
BB: 104 BB (VPIP: 17.31, PFR: 9.62, 3Bet Preflop: 5.88, Hands: 52)
UTG: 100 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
UTG+1: 109 BB (VPIP: 14.00, PFR: 10.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 50)
MP: 101 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 6)
MP+1: 35 BB (VPIP: 7.14, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♣ J♥

fold, fold, MP raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 2 BB

Flop: (11.5 BB, 2 players) Q♣ 2♣ 9♠
MP checks, Hero bets 5.5 BB, MP calls 5.5 BB

Turn: (22.5 BB, 2 players) K♠
MP checks, Hero checks

River: (22.5 BB, 2 players) 2♠
MP checks, Hero bets 11 BB, MP calls 11 BB

Hero shows J♣ J♥ (Two Pair, Jacks and Twos)
(Pre 67%, Flop 14%, Turn 7%)
MP shows T♦ Q♦ (Two Pair, Queens and Twos)
(Pre 33%, Flop 86%, Turn 93%)
MP wins 43 BB

It isn't anything special, or even a particularly difficult spot, but I'm not quite sure whether this is one of those unavoidable losses or whether there's something that can be done. I would greatly appreciate any advice!
 
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xy23

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I would've continued to cbet on the turn. This achieves two things: 1) you're making him pay for any flush draws and 2) you put pressure on any Ax, broadways, to continue calling.
This is one of those spots where double barrels followed by a check on the river would be standard then cbet, check, bet.
 
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domfudao

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Cbet flop
Check/call turn without K or A else fold

On River if opponent bet turn i go check again and call or fold depends my stack in the moment else i bet first

Case opponent re-raise = fold
 
Sil3ntness

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I would raise bigger pre out of position and then bet on the flop bigger. They don't always have a Q there.
 
SirYivx

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When 3betting pre, we want to have a set goal in mind. Are we 3betting for value with a premium hand or are we 3bet bluffing as an exploitative strategy(say, against tight-passive players)? With JJ, I think it's clear we are 3betting for value, so why go so small? We gain little, if any, knowledge about opponents hand strength while giving away quite a bit about ours, and also giving our opponent a great price to call. Who's folding for two BB?

I'm re-raising here to about 10-11BB, adjusting size based on our opponent and their tendencies.

Since we still know very little about our opponents hand and hand range, we have to play check-raise or continue with a bet with intention to barrel all 3 streets if needed, repping our higher hand range and strength(which is also why we 3bet).

Jacks are tough to play as is, as it's very likely an overcard will hit the flop, so knowing your opponents and finding out as much info as we can about our opponents hand is very important. As played, with a call on the flop, we are now in check-calling mode. Some straight draws get there on the turn, and the backdoor flush completes on the river, which is unlikely to be in our opponents range, but still possible. I think the Ks os a great card to double barrel on, as we block our opponents nutted hands (JT) as well as other strong hands(KJ, QJ) or strong flush draws as we hold the J of clubs. We can also represent the backdoor flush draw that comes in on the turn, so when the flush hits on the river, it's a perfect spot for the triple barrel. If we size up on the turn, say 1/2 - 2/3 pot, and fire big again on the river, we represent all the nutted hands (AA, KK, AK, KQ, QQ, JT) and backdoor flush draws like A5c. Even if your opponent is a calling station, he is very likely to realize his hand equity, as he loses to all other Qx hands, you have hand range advantage, and you tell a VERY convincing story by triple barrelling here.
 
ssangyongpoker

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I would have raised more preflop, preferably 8-10 BB after MP raised to 3BB, he might have folded

On a flop like that when it goes check/check on the turn, on the river you can only put him on two types of hands in my opinion.. a weak queen (which is what he had) and a busted flush draw. I do not see the player checking the K turn if he had a K in his hand

I feel like he checks the turn cause an overcard to his pair came on the board (in this case his Q) or he wants a free card for the flush draw
 
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Millie232

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SirYivx said:
When 3betting pre, we want to have a set goal in mind. Are we 3betting for value with a premium hand or are we 3bet bluffing as an exploitative strategy(say, against tight-passive players)? With JJ, I think it's clear we are 3betting for value, so why go so small? We gain little, if any, knowledge about opponents hand strength while giving away quite a bit about ours, and also giving our opponent a great price to call. Who's folding for two BB?

I'm re-raising here to about 10-11BB, adjusting size based on our opponent and their tendencies.

Since we still know very little about our opponents hand and hand range, we have to play check-raise or continue with a bet with intention to barrel all 3 streets if needed, repping our higher hand range and strength(which is also why we 3bet).

Jacks are tough to play as is, as it's very likely an overcard will hit the flop, so knowing your opponents and finding out as much info as we can about our opponents hand is very important. As played, with a call on the flop, we are now in check-calling mode. Some straight draws get there on the turn, and the backdoor flush completes on the river, which is unlikely to be in our opponents range, but still possible. I think the Ks os a great card to double barrel on, as we block our opponents nutted hands (JT) as well as other strong hands(KJ, QJ) or strong flush draws as we hold the J of clubs. We can also represent the backdoor flush draw that comes in on the turn, so when the flush hits on the river, it's a perfect spot for the triple barrel. If we size up on the turn, say 1/2 - 2/3 pot, and fire big again on the river, we represent all the nutted hands (AA, KK, AK, KQ, QQ, JT) and backdoor flush draws like A5c. Even if your opponent is a calling station, he is very likely to realize his hand equity, as he loses to all other Qx hands, you have hand range advantage, and you tell a VERY convincing story by triple barrelling here.
Click to expand...


Thank you for the amazing answer - very insightful! I've put a note next to the hand to ensure I either re-raise larger (which I should be doing in most of my hands, to be honest) and also to consider what villain checking a K turn means.
 
pabloT

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your raise should be higher pref flop .. and then you better go calmer, many Q will call you PF AQ KQ JQ TQ 9Qs
 
Misaki

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3bet pre to 9bbs and on flop it's just check behind. Don't cbet it. You should always consider how your range looks like there. You can easily cbet there top set, overpairs, some flushdraws like AKs or TP if you have AQ there in your 3bet range.

JJ just should be in your checking range here. On turn it depends if it's call, fold, bet if he won't bet himself or even check again.

Just think from what hands you want a value if you cbet flop? I see only TT there. And you are beaten by Qx, 99, and even AKs with clubs. Not so good, right?

so always check 2nd pair there as a default play.
 
TonyTwoCheeks

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The 3-bet size needs to be bigger. There were enough better hands he could have had to fold on the river.
 
Asixx014

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I agree that you should have 3bet higher, 2x-4x depending on the stickiness of the player. After seeing 1 overcard on the flop, I'd say a c-bet still probably a good idea heads-up as long as you're willing to 3-barrel, again, depending on the stickiness. Players dont often fold to a 3bet when holding 10-face or better, so the 3bet call range will be relatively loose depending on the size of the 3bet. Unfortunately, he used you're position against you here, so you would need to either check-call down to a fold if you were sure they had the queen or 3-barrel as a convincing bluff.

Disputes and comments welcome! :)
 
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maxi_j

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Call ar 3 bet higer preflop.
K is scary card for his QX range

So no need to bet on flop in his range there be more QX than 9X

if turn would be lower than "Q" I might underbet (30-40%) on river for thin value from PP and TX

If turn falls A you might think about triple barreling (if player are smart) and making JJ in to bluf and try to force him to fold QX range and missed draws.
 
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Alijohn

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Re-raise large pre- flop is good. And if someone calls that means he has good hand too. With Q on flop it will be better to slow down and wait how the opponent bets. Check/re-raise is a good move if he bets after flop. Or just accept the defeat and fold. Its hard but not that hard -“actually.
 
abwil2

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I dont think you payed much attention to him or his range.He raised pre? then calls u down with overs on flop and turn? me with any overs on flop with JJ i slow down. no reason to get too many chips in there if your most likely beat.
 
sedlacekj

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The main thing I would do differently is to raise pre-flop a bit more. Probably 2.2X. Your raise of 5BB is a 1.5X raise, so a bit small. Any hand that should be a 3-bet from your position should be raised larger. Otherwise the play is correct. Bet 1/2 pot on the postflop, check the turn (because you don't know if you're ahead or behind), bet 1/3 pot on the river. If he raised your check on the turn, that would be a good place to fold. Also if he 3-bet your river bet.

The MP range was mentioned above, so lets discuss ranges. The only MP open raise hands that have you beat are QQ, QX, AA, KK, KX, 99, and 22. (about 17 combos if we leave the suit unmentioned) You are ahead of AX, JX, TT, TX, 88, 77, 55, 55, 44, 33, 98s, 87s, 76s, and 65s and all other MP hands (about 29 combos). Folding early just because he raised and the flop has a Q is too nit. Sure he might have a Q or better but he only does about 36% of the time. As long as you 1/2 pot raise and he calls rather than 3-bet, you are still profitable generally. You will lose to his hand this time, but not the other 64% of the time this situation occurs. Of course the villain will probably fold to your raise if he doesn't have a Q once that Q shows up.
 
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dark IPA

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i dont think that MP will fold AQ if HERO will re-raise more than 5BB(except all-in, but its other story). situation for HERO here is that higher bet - higher lose, so H did her best by careful playing with JJ i think
 
TheGenera1

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Betting on the river will only cause hands that beat us to call. While checking back allows us to win pots from the parts of his range that we beat; missed flush draws, lower pocket pairs and Ace high. By betting, we are almost never getting value from worse hands, while we lose the pot to hands that beat us.
 
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