Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
yes, but what does he possibly have to gain from an interview like that where it just looks like he's damage controlling on FT's behalf?
DOJ adds Lederer/Ferguson/Furst to Complaint - Claims defrauded poker players
yes, but what does he possibly have to gain from an interview like that where it just looks like he's damage controlling on FT's behalf?
O
onemorechance
live free or die
Silver Level
Did you say that with a straight face?
Here's their flaw:
Can't keep blaming the DoJ for FT's pathetic incompetence
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
True, as I posted earlier, FTP never should have credited those deposits and should have kept players funds separate.
My comment was on the poster's statement that FTP's demise was due to a flawed deposit system which kind of over-simplifies the situation.
JamesDaBear
Visionary
Silver Level
He has nothing to gain from this. He's costing himself millions by doing this interviews instead of running and hiding like Ferguson, Lederer, etc. Even Rafe Furst, who I used to have a lot of respect for, is trying to save his ass through his attorney.
If you think he was damage controlling for FT when he calls them borderline thieves, then you were seeing something I didn't. He called this a black eye for online poker. There was no damage control there just because he refused to call it a Ponzi scheme... which it isn't. It's worse and Dwan is saying so.
JamesDaBear
Visionary
Silver Level
Just because we've been screwed by several poker sites doesn't make what the DOJ is doing right. They're not operating on our behalf... for the most part they're infringing on our freedoms... stripping out the politics, whether you like online poker or not, this was the absolute worst way the DOJ could go about "enforcing" this "law".
JusSumguy
Chipmonger
Silver Level
Ferguson (19.2%), Lederer (8.6%) and Furst (2.1%) along with 19 other unnamed players w/ownership percentages were taking their salaries right out of the player account pool (player deposits) with no accounting.
FTP was giving out no interest, FORGIVABLE loans to pros' out of the player account pool (player deposits) in return for playing on FTP. The money would stay in their account whether they lost it or not.
The whole issue of "phantom money" hasn't even been addressed yet.
If you deposited $5000.00 and ,without making a withdrawal, played that money down to $2500.00, that lost $2500.00 could be viewed as phantom money and is available to class action lawyers as recoverable monies. How they get their judgement is key to who is on the hook for the phantom money. Could be the players that got dumped may get dumped again.
(edit) The latest statistics say that 650 persons per day are leaving the US to play poker.
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FTP was giving out no interest, FORGIVABLE loans to pros' out of the player account pool (player deposits) in return for playing on FTP. The money would stay in their account whether they lost it or not.
The whole issue of "phantom money" hasn't even been addressed yet.
If you deposited $5000.00 and ,without making a withdrawal, played that money down to $2500.00, that lost $2500.00 could be viewed as phantom money and is available to class action lawyers as recoverable monies. How they get their judgement is key to who is on the hook for the phantom money. Could be the players that got dumped may get dumped again.
(edit) The latest statistics say that 650 persons per day are leaving the US to play poker.
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JamesDaBear
Visionary
Silver Level
...while everyone else has to pay and/or gets their food taken away from them mid-meal. If we want to continue this analogy...
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
alright, i suppose its more like putting down an invalid credit card for a bar tab
cardriverx
Legend
Silver Level
blame FTP don't blame the depositors. It's not his fault that FTP did not take his money/did nothing when he cheated the system.
There's no "moral high code."
JamesDaBear
Visionary
Silver Level
Of course there's not... that's why we're talking about a lot of people having lost money in an industry that will have to fight that much harder to regain legitimacy and the get the regulations favorable to players that we're so desperate for now.
I don't feel bad that FTP is out any of their money... they seemed to do just fine in this... but it shouldn't be too much to ask for common sense and human decency. If we associate with thieves and criminals, which is what we're talking about in this part of the thread (if you knowingly accept money in a fraudulent manner and don't try to make it right, you're just a thief), and say it's ok because there's "no moral high code", we are just as tainted with their slime.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
After BF when Stars started paying out US players and FTP couldn't they added it to the terms of service for non-US players only.
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Exit141RTe1
Legend
Silver Level
That is just way too funny!
Charade You Are
you can call me Frost
Silver Level
Epic Poker League’s Standards & Conduct Committee indefinitely suspended League members Howard Lederer and Chris Ferguson.
http://www.epicpoker.com/news/blog-pages/2011/09/standards-and-conduct-lederer-ferguson.aspx
http://www.epicpoker.com/news/blog-pages/2011/09/standards-and-conduct-lederer-ferguson.aspx
OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
It wasn't a week's worth - it was about 18 months worth and yes, across all the different deposit methods they were incapable of collecting on it all apparently adds up to $150 million.
Absolutely Full Tilt is at fault for crediting deposits that it couldn't collect the funds for, but I don't agree with the idea that we should blame them solely and not the depositors. Some will have done so innocently, but there will have been plenty of others that knowingly abused the system.
One thing I'm forced to wonder is how many of these deposits are still in the original player accounts at Full Tilt?
Obviously if someone was credited with a $1000 deposit and proceeded to lose the whole amount it's not practical to reclaim it from the players they lost it to. But if they've still got the $1000 (or more) in their Full Tilt account now, shouldn't the company be able to just "cancel out" that amount and bring the overall amount they owe players down in the process? Surely nobody thinks the site actually owes these players the $1000, given the player was never debited for the funds in the first place? They can't all have lost every cent of the $150 million total that was deposited.
JusSumguy
Chipmonger
Silver Level
Any class action lawyer attached to this. And there will be, will argue that those monies are phantom money and must be frozen for litigation. Leaving a bankrupt FT without that option.
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Jagsti
I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
Could Tom Dwan understate the seriousness of this anymore if he tried ffs! 'borderline theft', 'tonne of mismanagement'!
Do they expect ppl to believe that the shareholders of FT who were getting paid multi millions $$$ every year never knew where the money was coming from? Surely most of them saw the accounts of how much profit the company was making each year and that the amount of money being paid out to them just doesnt add up?
Also how does having one of your employees (FTPDoug) quoted on 2p2 numerous times as saying the players accounts are segregated, when clearly they weren't. Then paying shareholders enormous amounts with players money qualify as bordeline theft/mismanagement. These muthah's need to do long time jail for this.
Do they expect ppl to believe that the shareholders of FT who were getting paid multi millions $$$ every year never knew where the money was coming from? Surely most of them saw the accounts of how much profit the company was making each year and that the amount of money being paid out to them just doesnt add up?
Also how does having one of your employees (FTPDoug) quoted on 2p2 numerous times as saying the players accounts are segregated, when clearly they weren't. Then paying shareholders enormous amounts with players money qualify as bordeline theft/mismanagement. These muthah's need to do long time jail for this.
mrmonkey
Visionary
Silver Level
Pre-BF, would you not have been surprised to learn that Full Tilt wouldn't be able to pay back every single one of their players? They were the 2nd biggest poker site with just tons of money rolling in, and regulated by an authority (Alderney) which many had previously trusted.
The point is that we know little about how tight the regulations of Isle of Man / Alderney / Kahnawake really are until the shit hits the fan and we learn about all the things that the regulators do NOT check on. pokerstars, while obviously maintaining much better business practices than Full Tilt, was still engaged in illegal money transfer practices in order to keep their US-based player pool and that is something which a tight regulator probably wouldn't allow.
All this said, if I still had access to my bankroll I would be playing at PokerStars right now. Though we can't really ever know how strong Isle of Man regulations truly are, PokerStars by reputation has been the most trustworthy internet poker room for the past several years and their ability to pay their US customers back in spite of the DOJ hold on their funds certainly means they have been running a profitable and sustainable business.
One thing about PokerStars though -- has anyone heard reports of PokerStars crediting play accounts for deposits which have not actually gone through like Full Tilt did? I know most poker sites will do this as they want to earn rake on your play as quickly as possible and will settle with the money processors later, but did PokerStars lose any money by bad money processors the way Full Tilt did?
cardriverx
Legend
Silver Level
Yeah, they can. But only $9 million of the $150 million can be "canceled out" by that matter. Most players lost their money.
site here: http://www.subjectpoker.com/2011/08/ftps-60m-shortfall-actually-much-larger/
