****Notoriously Noxious November Cash Game Thread****

[Matt Vaughan]

In, still hoping to learn anything from you guys.

What? You do know this is mostly a chat thread, right? Not much poker goes on in the monthly cash threads. So if you were looking to learn much from participating that was probably not the best strategy. I actually feel my knowledge decreases during my participation in these threads :hmmmm:

Also, this kind of came across as bitter, which I'm kind of confused by.

 

[duggs]

cause you are a jaded reg scourgge we have been over this

 

[LuckyChippy]

3bet any ace at any time and you'll never be too far wrong.


I always seem to have a ticket to somewhere whenever this poker party thing is on.

 

[Deco]

Do you think we can flat profitably pre from co to a hijack open with A9o? My answer is no, and in that case it's actually pretty high up there in my choice of hands to 3b.

You must flat far wider than me.
My 3bet range here is something like {A2-A5s, KK+} if they 4bet the MP enough for AK/QQ to be fistpump 5bets I go with {QQ+,AK,A5s-A2s,K9s-T9s, 45s+}. Heck I'm folding A9s

 

[RodneyC86]

cause you are a jaded reg scourgge we have been over this

I'm gonna be as jaded as him I'm afraid...

I still don't know what I'm doing wrong
Oh well...I guess rakeback is fun...but so much for a fatter wallet and being 'cool'

110k hands at 10NL + 15K at 25NL

I'm barely winning...FML

 

[hackmeplz]

You must flat far wider than me.
My 3bet range here is something like {A2-A5s, KK+} if they 4bet the MP enough for AK/QQ to be fistpump 5bets I go with {QQ+,AK,A5s-A2s,K9s-T9s, 45s+}. Heck I'm folding A9s

Because especially IP I'd much rather have A9o than A2s. At the very least you should be 3-betting A9s far before A2s if the alternative is to fold it. Do you actually think you're going to make more money playing A2-A5s when they flat your 3b than you are with A9s?

That said you're allowed to 3-bet hands for value you're not gonna 5b shove. In those positions I probably 3b something like AQ+/TT+ for value then flat like A9s-AJs/AJo/66-99/98s+ then 3b bluff something like A2-A8s/A2-A9o/22-55/45s-78s/some other random suited hands. This is obviously only against people who open sufficiently wide and fold to enough 3-bets.

 

[dj11]

What? You do know this is mostly a chat thread, right? Not much poker goes on in the monthly cash threads. So if you were looking to learn much from participating that was probably not the best strategy. I actually feel my knowledge decreases during my participation in these threads :hmmmm:

Also, this kind of came across as bitter, which I'm kind of confused by.

Bitter? I can't get bitter about anything. I used a smiley! ohhhhh, guilty of improper use of smilies...

But I do got a question. Without fail, I can usually get up 2 BI's when I do any ring game, often 3, but never 4 unless I blundered on some supreme donkey. However, and invariably, I will hit the wall, and blow it all and end up down my 1 BI, and usually on tilt from some stupid play I made. Good for me that I have set and follow my hard and fast rule to never top up. At least from that POV, I can write it of as entertainment.

So, the question is; How do I train myself to get up and leave after I get up a couple of BI's?

 

[dj11]

Another question, after watching the wsop HU table last night. I know, that was tourney, this is cash chat, but it wasn't so different from playing ring HU with someone with a known limited stack, and nothing behind.

I know the reasons for raising the button HU, but is it necessary to do it every hand?

It becomes a straddle in that case, and means nothing (maybe willingness) and no one (usually) folds that 'straddle'.

So, the question is; Don't we diminish our 'tools' by always straddling (as in the above case), and always calling that bet?

 

[WVHillbilly]

Turn on auto top-up and quit when you start tilting. You're welcome.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Invariably you bust your BI? If you consistently tilt to the point where you always lose at a cash game no matter what, then you should probably work on tilt. Also work on quitting when you do start tilting - just as a quick-fix. But if you can't play more than half an hour at a time or whatever without tilting and losing your stack, then there are underlying problems there that have nothing to do with cash game abilities imo.

I'm not really clear on what your second question is. HU is a complex game, full of adjustments. People found out that position is so important that raising at a very high frequency in position is usually correct. Also, you ALWAYS have money at risk, which means you can't just fold. Limping the button is of course an option, but it's typically going to better to force your opponent to make a decision for more money than letting them see a flop without putting any more money in.

 

[hackmeplz]

Another question, after watching the WSOP HU table last night. I know, that was tourney, this is cash chat, but it wasn't so different from playing ring HU with someone with a known limited stack, and nothing behind.

I know the reasons for raising the button HU, but is it necessary to do it every hand?

It becomes a straddle in that case, and means nothing (maybe willingness) and no one (usually) folds that 'straddle'.

So, the question is; Don't we diminish our 'tools' by always straddling (as in the above case), and always calling that bet?

I think doing it shallow is bad (because you can't defend 3-bets as wide), but this is my strategy when playing HUNL 100bb+ deep. What do you mean that it means nothing though? It's simply one strategy in the branch of different strategies you can use. I personally think I'm going to profit the most on the button playing a strategy that min raises 100%. It doesn't diminish our tools any more than any other preflop strategy does. Does it diminish our "tools" if we decide to raise 70% limp 20% fold 10%? It's still a particular strategy. My goal is to create a situation where I can still build pots with strong hands but also put my opponent in a spot where they either have to fold way too much or play a wide range oop against me with deep stacks behind.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Stated it much better than I did, using almost the exact example I thought of too.

 

[dj11]

By nothing, I was referring to it becoming essentially a straddle. When a straddle is normal, it just becomes a 3rd blind, and actually means little, if not nothing. I agree it does work as a pressure prod, but when used every opportunity, as in that WSOP HU match last night, it loses any real value other than switching advantage. If both participants use it every opportunity, then functionally it seems that nothing has changed.

I'm trying to internalize against my prevailing logic. So I'm looking to alter my logic on this, as well as several other subjects.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Okay, even if "nothing has changed" in terms of advantage (this is still debatable), would it not still be best to use that strategy? Saying it keeps the advantage doesn't mean one of the players should choose to not do that - suddenly they wouldn't have that equal level anymore, and they'd be at a disadvantage.

 

[hackmeplz]

Yeah also anyone who doesn't straddle 3-handed or if somehow the room allowed it HU would be pretty dumb imo. It's a huge advantage in a spot where it's +ev to be playing close to every hand anyway. In HU though you don't get position pre as you do when you straddle so it's not quite as beneficial but yeah scourrge said it well just because if both players do it no one gains an advantage doesn't mean it's not the best strategy.

 

[dj11]

As Stud morphed into HoldEm, at first there was only a single blind which was easier to deal with than a table full of ante's. A straddle soon became normal, and eventually became the 2nd blind (equal to what would have been a table full of ante's plus the single blind). More morphing made those 2 blinds part of the rules of the game.

So what happens if that HU button raise becomes essentially a 3rd blind?

I'm asking because I often muck junk cards when I get HU in tourneys and it does become problematic when the other guy never mucks. Again, I understand this is the cash thread, but HU for stacks is a cash game....right? Doesn't really matter how we get there ...right?

 

[hackmeplz]

As Stud morphed into HoldEm, at first there was only a single blind which was easier to deal with than a table full of ante's. A straddle soon became normal, and eventually became the 2nd blind (equal to what would have been a table full of ante's plus the single blind). More morphing made those 2 blinds part of the rules of the game.

So what happens if that HU button raise becomes essentially a 3rd blind?

you're not thinking about this right. Whether we call it a 3rd blind or a straddle or a hemoxylophoblinismquoxal it doesn't matter. We are taking an action in a game that will lead to other decisions and ultimate lead to a payoff based on how our opponent plays as well. That's what matters.

I'm asking because I often muck junk cards when I get HU in tourneys and it does become problematic when the other guy never mucks. Again, I understand this is the cash thread, but HU for stacks is a cash game....right? Doesn't really matter how we get there ...right?

HU is 2 different games you take turns playing. Half of the games you get the button and half the games you get the BB. Your result in this game will be the sum of your button and BB games. How your opponent plays on the button should have absolutely no impact on how you play on the button, it is a completely different game. You should be playing your buttons in what you believe to be the most profitable manner. I guess if there are extremes it's ok to play slightly lower variance on the button if your opponent is giving you huge edges when he's on the button (aka he's open shoving 100% on the button it's ok to play your buttons in a slightly lower ev manner in order to maximize the amount of times you get to play the BB), but those are rare imo.

You are right about HU sngs (or the final 2 of an mtt/non-HU sng) basically being HU cash with shallow stacks though. There are minor metagame concerns as your opponent will always quit when one person gets all the chips in a tourney and in cash there may be varying factors that would lead to the match ending earlier, but for the most part I think we can ignore these.

 

[WVHillbilly]

hemoxylophoblinismquoxal

Can we not call it this? I don't think I can pronounce it.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

We are never forced to open the button. We simply choose to because it is the best strategy.

A blind is a forced bet, put out before you know anything about your cards. Also, if there was a forced "third blind" (wouldn't that really just be flipping the SB and BB positions?) on the BTN in a HU game, that just means that the BTN would have position preflop as well. Changes dynamics pretty significantly, so no I don't think I would equate us raising 100% of buttons to having a forced blinds OTB.

 

[xdeucesx]

too much strategy, not enough clutter itt

need some more joebob pics

 

[WVHillbilly]

too much strategy, not enough clutter itt

need some more boob pics

fyp

 

[Deco]

Because especially IP I'd much rather have A9o than A2s. At the very least you should be 3-betting A9s far before A2s if the alternative is to fold it. Do you actually think you're going to make more money playing A2-A5s when they flat your 3b than you are with A9s?

Won't there Ax flatting range will have us dominated either way ? They play the same unless villain starts flatting 88-22 pocketpairs.

Main reason I chose it wasn't because I see it as a stronger hand but to give my range some low cards. A lot less important to do when our range is uncapped but still useful.

 

[JOEBOB69]

too much strategy, not enough clutter itt

need some more joebob pics

In
**** Pitt
Carry on..

 

[hackmeplz]

First of all, **** Towson

 

[hackmeplz]

Don't worry it's an inside joke that no one that reads this forum is in on.