Maybe I Should Just Quit?

[ssbn743]

It seems like you may be projecting your values onto others. I'm not disagreeing with what you say, but if others choose to act differently, so what? There's nothing you can do about your model 21 year-old's poor BRM, and it even seems possible to argue that his irresponsibility works in your favor.

Or am I missing your point?

I’m not projecting my values; I’m talking about BRM and the undeniable fact that we will have expenses that reasonably include things like a hotel room and food.

But you’re absolutely right; their supposed irresponsibility does work in my favor and everyone else’s as well – assuming, of course, that they actually do play worse after spending a night in a car.

To be honest, I’m not even sure how we got to this topic on this post; I made one amusing antidote about a 21-year old with a backpack on his chair, or what I thought to be amusing, and here we are; this whole point is moot – I don’t care what 21 year olds do, in reality I don’t care what anyone does.

 

[ssbn743]

Maybe consider a different variant? One of the more numbers oriented variants such as Stud or Omaha H/L? You seem to make the right decisions, but sounds like bad runs at critical times. I've not played, but don't those games reward correct decisions more consistently than NLH?

Also, consider renting an RV for travel? Combine transport with sleeping in a vehicle (the right way). Or camping. Do some sightseeing or other activities on your trips to enrich the experience.

With the online cardrooms starting to open for the U.S., you could grind a bit, use tracking software to plug a couple of leaks and see if your ROI doesn't improve.

And have you gone back to the beginning? What are you really looking for when you play? Maybe go up a step and play fewer tournaments, or drop down and play more?

This is not bad advice at all. Unfortunately, mixed games are sort of a lost art outside of major Vegas type casinos. The games that are regularly available to me are Hold ‘em and Omaha, all with $100 maximum bet rules.

I’m not worried about my travel budget; I feel that it is well within my bankroll’s capabilities. Also and unfortunately I don’t have a great deal of options with stakes. It’s pretty much the $40 weekday tournament filled with two tables of retired people or the stakes I currently play. There are a few other options in buy-in’s but all of the them would drastically effect the prize pool either by not having near the amount of players or by houses raking way too much.

In short, say for a slight bit of wiggle room, I’m pretty much stuck at my current stakes and game.

 

[itsmebobd]

I have been playing poker semi-seriously now for 5 years; I mean I have a day job and could not possibly make a living at the poker stakes I play at; nonetheless I have been a decent player for 5 years.

I started my poker bankroll in 2009 with $20K and am nearly entirely a tournament player. I don't have the luxury of supplementing my play with cash games since, here in Colorado, those games suck. $1/$2 to $100 because there is a $100 max-bet law in effect. We all know that we can only reasonably expect to win about 3-4BB per 100 hands, or $4/hour at these stakes. Quite frankly, I don’t have the patience for that and easily leak $8 every $100 hands. So I occasionally, play cash just to kill time, and it’s more like Bingo anyway because no one cares about the $2BB, limp, limp, limp, call, call, call…the point is I don’t waste my time trying to make any money at Colorado cash games. There are bigger games, like $30/$60 but with a $100 max bet I can’t even make a legal raise – to me it’s a moot point; though I know several regular players that play that game and consistently do well, at least that’s what they say.

Yesterday I played in a $500 dollar deep stack tournament that’s part of a locally run tournament series called the CPC (Colorado Poker Classic). I lost in horrific fashion, again, and am quite frustrated by it.

One player in particular was as weak as they come. We started with $40K and he got involved in a hand very early on that he ended up winning and more than doubling up. He had and made a set on the flop with a board. He flat called a large flop bet and a large turn bet to the point where he had 60% of his stack invested. It went on the turn and river and he ended up flat calling a large river bet and cracking a flopped nut-flush. Then he said, “Man that 3 on the river was a miracle” as I’m just in awe of how the money got in and how lucky he got and how terribly he played his hand.

So he then had about $90K. We played for 7 hours and in that time he raised exactly twice to ridiculous 10x amounts, everyone folded both times and he won the blinds; I’m sure he was thinking “finally I won with Jacks”. Yet he limped in nearly every hand and would routinely call pre-flop raises and 3-bets – but he would routinely limp/fold as well. I had personally raised his pre-flop limps at least 3 times and there were several other players taking advantage as well. We just returned from the dinner break when the following hand takes place:

Blinds were $1K/$2K/$300, I had $43K and my opponent had limped his +$90K stack off to around $60K. Everyone folded to my foe in the hijack and he limps again for $2K. It’s folded to me on the button and I find I raised to $7K (3.5x with 20-ish BB’s). Both of the blinds fold and the hijack player calls after some deliberation.

Pot: $20K

Flop:

My opponent insta-checked. Over the course of the day he had been limping constantly, yet, when he would hit something he would lead out and bet and always a 1x or 1.5x pot bet. When he didn’t hit anything, he would check just like he did here. Additionally, he insta-checked, which is to say not a dark check but as soon as possible after the flop was seen. We all should know that is a clear sign of weakness.

I mulled my options over:

1. I check behind
2. I bet – something like $6K-$8K
3. I move all-in.

Options 1 and 2 both have the same problem, he gets another card. I’m nearly sure I have the best hand right now and his range is literally anything within reason – I don’t want him to get another card. If I bet here, I guarantee he calls and I’m in a really bad spot with a lot of turn cards. Plus any reasonable stab at this pot will commit around 30% of my stack. I choose option #3 and moved all-in.

My opponent snap calls me. “Shit”, as I let out a big sigh. “Well I really stepped in it here, what do you have K8 or something?” He shows

Pot: $106K

Turn:



River:



I don’t want to waste too much time trying to analyze this hand, I feel that I will lose brain cells and actually get dumber by attempting to do so. I’ll bet that he can’t even tell me why he did that – but he did and that’s that.

I am getting really frustrated and have been on the worst losing streak I have ever had; and it’s always something stupid like this. Equally frustrating is that fact that this was a $500 buy-in; this wasn’t the $40 10am Tuesday morning tournament; WTF!

So here are my numbers:

2009
BR $20K, 63 tournaments played, ABI - $135, ITM – 12%, Gross +$750, Net -$625, ROI -3.1%

2010
BR $19,375, 29 tournaments played, ABI - $165, ITM – 20%, Gross +$2443, Net+$898, ROI +4.6%

2011
BR $20,273, 21 tournaments played, ABI - $425, ITM – 24%, Gross -$165, Net -$1260, ROI -6.2%

2012
BR $19,013, 63 tournaments played, ABI - $325, ITM – 24%, Gross -$1706, Net -$1166, ROI -6.1%

2013
BR $17,307, 69 tournaments played, ABI - $250, ITM – 19%, Gross -$3106, Net -$5346, ROI -30%

Overall
BR $11961, 245 tournaments played, ABI - $260, ITM – 19.8%, Gross -$1784, Net -$7,499, ROI -41.6%

I am seriously thinking about quitting – this is a complete waste of time. I win and lose at the wrong times and I always have something absolutely ridiculous like the above example kill my hopes at a larger than average cash. The travel, lodging, and incidental costs are off the chart and account for a -28.5% ROI by themselves. I don’t think these numbers are really all that bad, that said, they are pretty pedestrian, but ITM 19.8% of the time, over 5 years isn’t awful; is it? I guess I just don’t have what it takes and am seriously thinking about giving up – it’s not even fun anymore!

My guess is that he played the hand based on implied odds. ALso be very wary of anything you say or do at the table, you're giving off some sort of signal. The "what do you have k8 or something" let him know you werent comfortable with your hand. Also, ITM 19% sounds to me like you're trying to cash, not win. Getting to the money in MTT's wont let your bankroll sustain itself as you've seen. If you want any help I play some MTT's online with my buddy at bovada, sounds like you need some more experience in MTT's. You're playing with the sharks and although you're not a fish, you're still getting eaten alive it seems. Private msg me if u want some coaching, but I must warn you i'm not a pro and i'm rebuilding my former bankroll to give this thing another run.

Also looks like you've been at least treading water or slightly below it MTT-wise, and had a bad year.

 

[ssbn743]

My guess is that he played the hand based on implied odds. ALso be very wary of anything you say or do at the table, you're giving off some sort of signal. The "what do you have k8 or something" let him know you werent comfortable with your hand. Also, ITM 19% sounds to me like you're trying to cash, not win. Getting to the money in MTT's wont let your bankroll sustain itself as you've seen. If you want any help I play some MTT's online with my buddy at bovada, sounds like you need some more experience in MTT's. You're playing with the sharks and although you're not a fish, you're still getting eaten alive it seems. Private msg me if u want some coaching, but I must warn you i'm not a pro and i'm rebuilding my former bankroll to give this thing another run.

Also looks like you've been at least treading water or slightly below it MTT-wise, and had a bad year.

You think he check/snap called because of implied odds? Also, I don’t think it has any relevance what I say after the money is already in the pot; wouldn’t you agree? I’m not superstitious.

I’ve always thought 20% ITM was the mark, maybe that’s wrong. After looking at my ITM numbers over the entire 5 years I’ve been seriously playing they are as follows:

2009 Top3 – 4, Middle – 4, Min-Cash – 0 - 50%/50%/0%
2010 Top3 – 3, Middle –3, Min-Cash – 1 – 43%/43%/14%
2011 Top3 – 1, Middle – 4, Min-Cash – 1 – 17%/66%/17%
2012 Top3 – 5, Middle –4, Min-Cash – 5 – 36%/28%/36%
2013 Top3 – 3, Middle – 6, Min-Cash – 1 – 30%/60%/10%

Total Top3 – 16, Middle – 21, Min-Cash – 8 – 36%/47%/17%

I think the numbers show that I am not merely worried about cashing. 36%/47%/17% seem like very good numbers to me, though admittedly, I have no idea what nominal is. Maybe I just had a bad year, stranger things have happened, but man does it suck and even if luck would have fallen my way a little more I likely would have still simply broke even – it’s hurting my Mojo! Why do I keep putting myself through this shit again?

 

[houtlijm]

5 years of poker is a long period of time. i'd suggest you take a complete break for 6 months or so and then start again with sit and go's in stead of mtt. there the variance is a lot less and you won't tilt that hard anymore.

 

[rifflemao]

I’m very big on and familiar with Jonathan Little. Certainly I didn’t mean that 21 year old jackass, just all the other 21 one year olds that think they’re Jonathan Little. It really annoys me when they buy-in to +$1000 tournaments but apparently can’t afford a hotel room and sleep in their car and keep a backpack filled with two-weeks of clothes hanging on their chair.

But you’re right, that attitude is not helping my game in many ways. Nonetheless, there is not a lot I can learn from the vast majority of this player type – most of them are just learning themselves, but already think they know everything. There’s a lot of the “I’m 17 and mad at my father” syndrome going on in that group; Jonathon Little is obviously the exception and provides lots of very detailed and insightful advice –I’ve actually been playing the Little strategy exclusively for most of 2013. Obviously this year falls short of my expectations but that has nothing to do with Little, just the Little wannnabes that stack off in ridiculous ways yet continue to beat me.

I used to play on FTP and was even on the top 100 leaderboard, for 12 straight weeks in 2006, on the original Doyle’s Room (before the screwed that site all up). I have lots of online experience and have done much better online than I ever have live. But live poker is more fun to me; not that I too wasn’t devastated by Black Friday but in a way it forced me to play poker where I really wanted to anyway. I never made a great deal of money online, in fact I’d say with the live poker numbers I posted on this forum, I’m just about even if you add in online play (I’ll check that). But I was pretty proud of that top 100 number. I do still have some money in Lock and occasionally play there for practice as well, but knowing I’ll never see any money I win kind of takes the fun out of it.

Were you in the FTT webinar today by chance? JL commented that online play (multi-tabling for volume) with HM2 or PT4 is the way to go for most, although he also warned US players to be wary of depositing too much due to current conditions. I know for certain that Bovada is paying however, although US and Canadian banks may both rake some unreasonable fees.

In a previous webinar, he also discussed the poor value of many low buyin tourneys at casinos due to high fees, high variance, and poor structures. I'll be saving my live buyins for WSOPC and CardPlayer Poker Tour events, and a live league that has been a good value.

 

[fordman427]

You should not quit now! You have put so much time and effort into the game. just play some smaller buy-in tournements for a while

 

[mlgibbs78]

I've won 300,000 bucks so far..

Bpoker721 on skype.. can give u a few mins

 

[bolda3]

I, along with probably everyone in poker, have been to that point before. The one thing that always helps turn it around is a nice break. I drop all of poker. The online games, live games, forums, poker shows on tv...everything. Show yourself there are other things out there and clear your mind. You will feel your field of vision open up. When are you finally feeling ready to play, wait, and when you feel really ready wait some more. Then when you you feel really really ready, get back into it. Start back at low buy-in when you have plenty of time and are in a calm state of mind. I play mostly online but I think the same holds true in real life. It will turn around. It always does.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

You think he check/snap called because of implied odds? Also, I don’t think it has any relevance what I say after the money is already in the pot; wouldn’t you agree? I’m not superstitious.

I’ve always thought 20% ITM was the mark, maybe that’s wrong. After looking at my ITM numbers over the entire 5 years I’ve been seriously playing they are as follows:

2009 Top3 – 4, Middle – 4, Min-Cash – 0 - 50%/50%/0%
2010 Top3 – 3, Middle –3, Min-Cash – 1 – 43%/43%/14%
2011 Top3 – 1, Middle – 4, Min-Cash – 1 – 17%/66%/17%
2012 Top3 – 5, Middle –4, Min-Cash – 5 – 36%/28%/36%
2013 Top3 – 3, Middle – 6, Min-Cash – 1 – 30%/60%/10%

Total Top3 – 16, Middle – 21, Min-Cash – 8 – 36%/47%/17%

I think the numbers show that I am not merely worried about cashing. 36%/47%/17% seem like very good numbers to me, though admittedly, I have no idea what nominal is. Maybe I just had a bad year, stranger things have happened, but man does it suck and even if luck would have fallen my way a little more I likely would have still simply broke even – it’s hurting my Mojo! Why do I keep putting myself through this shit again?

I agree with you that your ITM% numbers look pretty good. I don't know what we are "supposed" to be shooting for...but around my neck of the woods all the casinos and card rooms pay between 10-15% of the field. I'd think that if we fancy ourselves better than average players, we should expect better than average results including ITM% so I would think that around 20% maybe up to a max of 25% is a nice sweet spot...too high and maybe you're min cashing too much or playing a super soft field, too low and maybe you're playing too tough of a field....just my gut feeling as I have no source to back this up.

 

[ccocco]

from what I see sos good player, maybe you're tired of traveling and all the tension that leave you play those tournaments .. you would have to play poker online, and if you're not playing, you sit jugas a tournament .. perdes or desire and then you write down in another, there are players who earn more money online than playing live

 

[daramvid]

You seem to have a great grip on the game. Your numbers seen reasonable. I wonder if the cashing is what you are focusing on. There seems to be a big added equity to going for the win. Stick with it. Re adjust the game and keep putting the work and studying. I am a local at your casinos too! The 30-60 across the street is ridiculous. I knew a guy who's game I respect lose 10k in 2 weeks. Good luck at the tables, hope ya get that big cash soon and I'm chopping with you. Cheers.