***May i make a may tourney thread?***

[AlfieAA]

Thanks wizzim, wise words.

So seeing that this guy is loose passive do we not take that into account when its on the bubble. Do they naturally tighten up and wait for a hand to shove. Albeit a wider range. Plus he prob doesn't have a grasp of the gap concept and will call shoves just as wide as he shoves first in. So you could basically shove on him bvb with ATC in these spots.

 

[loafes]

Thanks wizzim, wise words.

So seeing that this guy is loose passive do we not take that into account when its on the bubble. Do they naturally tighten up and wait for a hand to shove. Albeit a wider range. Plus he prob doesn't have a grasp of the gap concept and will call shoves just as wide as he shoves first in. So you could basically shove on him bvb with ATC in these spots.

If someone is calling as wide as they're shoving then don't we need to tighten our shoving range, since presumably we shove wide on bubbles to illicit a lot of folds, if people aren't folding then doesn't that mean we should only shove hands that have good equity vs a calling range

 

[duggs]

If someone is calling as wide as they're shoving then don't we need to tighten our shoving range, since presumably we shove wide on bubbles to illicit a lot of folds, if people aren't folding then doesn't that mean we should only shove hands that have good equity vs a calling range

Agree with this, if someone is calling wider we need to tighten our range v them since not only do out bottom of rage shoves become unprofitable cEV wise, but ICM hurts us even more because frequent all ins on the bubble carry a very real monetary cost

 

[AlfieAA]

If someone is calling as wide as they're shoving then don't we need to tighten our shoving range, since presumably we shove wide on bubbles to illicit a lot of folds, if people aren't folding then doesn't that mean we should only shove hands that have good equity vs a calling range

Yeah, makes sense to tighten our shoving range if people know we are shoving wider on the bubble and will call more, because I think their calling range would be even wider to exploit our bully shoving. Think it depends on how peoplw are reacting to the bubble and if someone is folding every hand and will shove tight then we can exploit them bvb and shove everytime in that spot. But yeah if people are not folding then we can sit back and exploit them with a wider calling range and tighter shoving range...

 

[duggs]

It's pretty hard to exploit someone shoving too wide on the bubble, since ICM will often dampen the effect on our calling ranges

 

[WiZZiM]

Thanks wizzim, wise words.

So seeing that this guy is loose passive do we not take that into account when its on the bubble. Do they naturally tighten up and wait for a hand to shove. Albeit a wider range. Plus he prob doesn't have a grasp of the gap concept and will call shoves just as wide as he shoves first in. So you could basically shove on him bvb with ATC in these spots.

he's loose agressive, 11 ag is pretty darn high here. He may or may not have a grasp, keep in mind it's only 100 hands, he could have just limped a bit in the early game, those stats can settle over the course of a few more tournaments. all we really know, is that villian is on the aggressive side of things.

what matters here before anything is the stack dynamics, we have a big stack, and we don't really want to just walk this guy without a reason to do so. He seems aggro, but it's the bubble, and this is probably the first bubble we've played against him, so lets test him out at least and find out what we can get away with/find out the best angle of attack against this guy.

If someone is calling as wide as they're shoving then don't we need to tighten our shoving range, since presumably we shove wide on bubbles to illicit a lot of folds, if people aren't folding then doesn't that mean we should only shove hands that have good equity vs a calling range

Yep for sure, but what do you do with your "range" here, whatever that is. Are you just shoving every hand, let's say top 40% and folding the other 60% of hands? What are you doing, and how do you strucuture your ranges to make the most profitable line.

Yeah, makes sense to tighten our shoving range if people know we are shoving wider on the bubble and will call more, because I think their calling range would be even wider to exploit our bully shoving. Think it depends on how peoplw are reacting to the bubble and if someone is folding every hand and will shove tight then we can exploit them bvb and shove everytime in that spot. But yeah if people are not folding then we can sit back and exploit them with a wider calling range and tighter shoving range...

Yep, in this exact situation it does make sense to kind of walk this guy a bit, since he is showing to be aggressive. I still like to test the waters, especially if i see the guy in my games enough. However, if the stack sizes are differant we probably cannot afford to wait it out, and we let him take control of things if we just tighten our ranges, which is never a good thing.



So, again. how do you guys strucutre your ranges here, let's say, for arguments sake we work out that this guy is calling the top 30% of hands. Which means we can shove around 60% of hands.

Are we shoving all our top 60 and folding the other 40%? what are you doing with specific types of hands in this spot?

 

[WiZZiM]

if people aren't folding then doesn't that mean we should only shove hands that have good equity vs a calling range

Yes and no, we still have fold equity here, and we have the bubble on our side, plus the fact that he cannot knock us out of the tournament. Game theory wise, he makes a huge mistake here generally if he calls us too wide, but we can rarely make a mistake by shoving too wide.

if we tighten up too much, we basically wave the white flag to this guy and walk him 40-50% of the time, this isn't a good situation. There are plenty of good regs out there that will give you a really hard time, but you cannot just fold to them and give them an early christmas present.

 

[AlfieAA]

I don't think I would shove 60% of hands because if he's calling 30% then we are getting folds on our big hands we want a call on. Depends on many other things, like will he exploit our tendencies. If not then we can limp the top half of our value range and shove the bottom half. If that's too obvious to him then we need to shove the whole 60%.....

I don't really understand icm yet and as duggs said, that also plays a part. But right now taking stack sizes into account and the fact we're on the bubble I would be putting him to the test more than giving him a walk.

Do you want me to give a specific range of hands I would shove/limp/fold with?

If so then my stats would go higher the longer the game and with less opponents and especially if I had a big stack compared to others at the table. But if the whole table was loose aggro even on the bubble then I would obviously tighten up my ranges and especially my calling range. But again it depends on many factors lol

 

[WiZZiM]

I don't think I would shove 60% of hands because if he's calling 30% then we are getting folds on our big hands we want a call on. Depends on many other things, like will he exploit our tendencies. If not then we can limp the top half of our value range and shove the bottom half. If that's too obvious to him then we need to shove the whole 60%.....
It's just an example, in no way am i saying shoving top 60% here is profitable against a 30% calling range, it would be close, but it's just an example. Like, lets assume a 60% range is all that is profitable here.
I don't really understand icm yet and as duggs said, that also plays a part. But right now taking stack sizes into account and the fact we're on the bubble I would be putting him to the test more than giving him a walk.
ICM basically is common sense, turned into something very complex. Think about it like this, we have chips, we cannot be knocked out here, we can shove wide, and he should be calling tight, we should shove wide, giving him walks isn't great, and if we get called, we pretty much always have 30% equity in the hand unless he has a monster.
Do you want me to give a specific range of hands I would shove/limp/fold with?you can if you like, this is here to help you all, not me. i know what i would do here, right or wrong it doesn't really matter, it's the thought behind it that matters. Being able to think properly will lead to better decsions, which will lead to better results.

If so then my stats would go higher the longer the game and with less opponents and especially if I had a big stack compared to others at the table. But if the whole table was loose aggro even on the bubble then I would obviously tighten up my ranges and especially my calling range. But again it depends on many factors lolthis seems ok to me, it's good to have a general plan to play bubbles. Like, we might decide to walk this guy a bit more often, and raise more buttons against the other villian, expecting the loose guy to fold way more often in the SB. We should always be looking for ways we can attack, if there are none, then sometimes the best play is to go into defense mode to protect our stack. You don't want to just let people chip up though, our goal is cashing, and them picking up free chips does not help our goal.

..


anyone else going to give input?

 

[dj11]

ok, so let's talk some STT strat. This will also apply to some MTT and pretty much any form of SNG you will ever play. Let's actually think about things here and our ranges, or options with our range instead of just falling into a shove/fold strategy.

The J9s here is a super easy shove, in a very common spot where we have a big chip lead. I'm not questioning the shove here, moreso what will we do when we get in similar situations with differant hands, or differant parts of our range. Like, we have 84off here, what do we do? AA, what do we do? etc etc

Villian here seems to like calling a bit, so he's likely to call shoves wider than what is correct to do so, he also seems to like 3betting, but it's only over 85 hands, so lets not put too much thought into his HUD atm.

So with that said, what is your plan of attack here, and what types of ranges will you shove/limp/min-raise/fold etc. and why?

hopefully the stats are pretty clear, if you don't know what something is, i'll point out HUD stats if you need.

Terrible screenie there, but how 5,4,3 seated end games play out is the story you are wondering about right? After all they would be playing about the same for MTT,s or STT's. Though the stack sizes could be radically different.

For the most part I don't change my game all that much. I love shorter than 6 max like play, and I have found that letting the other players take care of most of the heavy work, has made my game more profitable. Time after time when I am more agro than normal I end up doing myself more damage than good.

There seems to be a mindset when anyone (myself included) gets ITM, that 'at least I have covered' and they (me too) care less about proper play and get more (what's the right word?) explosive (?). They often will do each other in allowing me (regardless of my stack) to coast till I get the easy hands.

 

[AlfieAA]

Ok having thought about it again, I would pretty much shove a full range in this situation bvb....we have him comfortably covered and we have fold equity since its the bubble....I don't see the point in folding or open limping....folding because he picks up easy dead money and his stack grows because of our incompetence to take advantage of a shorty....open limping because it gives him a free look at the flop...and if we whiff with trash then you are basically handing him an extra $100 when we check/fold...because if he leads out we no longer have any fold equity as he's commited......so I would shove ATC in this situation....

Thanks for the explanation on icm btw wizz, I always thought it was more of a common sense thing than anything too complicated.

 

[WiZZiM]

Terrible screenie there, but how 5,4,3 seated end games play out is the story you are wondering about right? After all they would be playing about the same for MTT,s or STT's. Though the stack sizes could be radically different.

For the most part I don't change my game all that much. I love shorter than 6 max like play, and I have found that letting the other players take care of most of the heavy work, has made my game more profitable. Time after time when I am more agro than normal I end up doing myself more damage than good.

There seems to be a mindset when anyone (myself included) gets ITM, that 'at least I have covered' and they (me too) care less about proper play and get more (what's the right word?) explosive (?). They often will do each other in allowing me (regardless of my stack) to coast till I get the easy hands.

yep, i'll repost it tonight. It's the bubble of a 6max SNG, but really, our range is not what i'm asking here, i'm trying to get everyone thinking about how they play certain hands in their range here. obviously i'm wasting my time trying to make this happen, but nevertheless i will continue

yeah the above makes sense if you are playing $5 games and below, but as soon as you get past that, you will be out aggro'd and you will just fold your way into short stacks. I get what you are saying, it's all about finding balance and making sure you are being aggressive as possible without it becoming spewy.

Yes, once ITM a lot of players will adjust heavily and will start just going nuts, which is why for the first few hands of ITM play, i generally back off and see what happens, if they don't seem like they are going crazy, then i'll continue doing what i was doing on the bubble more or less.


anyways i'll repost, it was a bit of a shitty screenshot. Again though, i don't really care about this situation it's the thought behind it that matters. This also isn't for me, it's to get discussion on this forum going, to get this thread going because it looks like the forum is slowly dying.

 

[dj11]

I had something written but it is well past my bedtime, so I trashed it.

 

[matt0216]

If it's a good player, I'm just shoving my entire range (which will be any two)

Against this guy, I'll narrow my range a bit, but not a ton because he has to call pretty wide for any two to not be good here. Since he's an unknown, at least as far as bubble play goes, I'm gonna be testing the waters a bit and I won't just be shoving 100% of my range vs him. It makes sense to min raise premiums to see if he'll play back some. It's certainly easier to induce a shove vs a player like this than one who knows icm. In game, I'd probably also cut the very bottom of my range, or just min raise to see what he does. Maybe throw a limp/stab in there as well. It just depends on how he reacts to those moves...

That would be my initial mindset for that situation, but it could quickly change and the other player involved would have an impact on how'd I approach it. Is the other player a reg? How does the villain in this hand play when he's in the sb, or btn? Basically, if the other guy is a reg he'll be the one I'm most worried about chipping up so I'd try to put more pressure on him and that may mean I'm willing to pass on spots against the bb in this hand.

 

[loafes]

If it's a good player, I'm just shoving my entire range (which will be any two)

Against this guy, I'll narrow my range a bit, but not a ton because he has to call pretty wide for any two to not be good here. Since he's an unknown, at least as far as bubble play goes, I'm gonna be testing the waters a bit and I won't just be shoving 100% of my range vs him. It makes sense to min raise premiums to see if he'll play back some. It's certainly easier to induce a shove vs a player like this then one who knows icm. In game I'd probably also cut the very bottom of my range, or just min raise to see what he does. Maybe throw a limp/stab in there as well. It just depends on how he reacts to those moves...

That would be my initial mindset for that situation, but it could quickly change and the other player involved would have an impact on how'd I approach it. Is the other player a reg? How does the villain in this hand play when he's in the sb, or btn? Basically, if the other guy is a reg he'll be the one I'm most worried about chipping up so I'd try to put more pressure on him and that may mean I'm willing to pass on spots against the bb in this hand.

This is like pretty much word for word what I was thinking, I just didn't bother writing it down for whatever reason.

 

[loafes]

You've gotta love the Saturday micro. Great value tournament and a super soft field, plus I feel like I cash in it pretty consistently, though still looking to make that deep run.

Of course all the class one omega fish do mean you are going to face crap like this on the bubble from time to time.







poker stars $3.00+$0.30 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t200/t400 Blinds + t40 - 9 players - View hand 2505197
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: t20304 M = 21.15
UTG+1: t12806 M = 13.34
UTG+2: t10392 M = 10.82
MP1: t16517 M = 17.21
MP2: t10028 M = 10.45
CO: t2066 M = 2.15
BTN: t29081 M = 30.29
Hero (SB): t28604 M = 29.80
BB: t3995 M = 4.16

Pre Flop: (t960) Hero is SB with Q :heart: Q :spade:
6 folds, BTN raises to t800, Hero raises to t2400, 1 fold, BTN raises to t6000, Hero calls t3600

Flop: (t12760) 7 :heart: 7 :club: 8 :club: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets t23041 all in, Hero calls t22564 all in

Turn: (t57888) J :diamond: (2 players - 2 are all in)

River: (t57888) 9 :club: (2 players - 2 are all in)


Villain had Qd 10s