Recent poker hand controversy

[BlueNowhere]

It dosent matter, once you ask for a count you are agreeing to give them.

Its not a rule violation its a an etiquette violation.

I know it's not a rule violation, the thread never sugested it was a rule violation.

I'd always thought a count was optional to the one being asked. If I asked him and I was later involved in a pot with someone else and they asked me would I have to give it to them?

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I know it's not a rule violation, the thread never sugested it was a rule violation.

I'd always thought a count was optional to the one being asked. If I asked him and I was later involved in a pot with someone else and they asked me would I have to give it to them?

I dont see why you wouldnt.

Either ask for chip counts and give them when asked

Or dont ask for chip counts and remain silent when asked.

Is that hard?

 

[BlueNowhere]

I dont see why you wouldnt.

Either ask for chip counts and give them when asked

Or dont ask for chip counts and remain silent when asked.

Is that hard?

You're being a bit condescending when I really don't see any reason for you being. As explained earlier I don't play much live poker and going off what I've read online not giving a chip count is not bad etiquette. If I knew it was if I'd previously asked for a chip count I wouldn't have created this thread. You say I don't see why you wouldn't give a chip count, the reasoning is pretty much in the body of the original post. I was unaware of the etiquette regarding it and I saw it as the most +ev option.

 

[BlueNowhere]

I would call what you did as being a douchebag. If someone asks you for a chip count just answer, is that so hard? People aren't getting any information from you saying, "About 5,000" or something and if they think they are they will outlevel themselves more often than not.

I wouldn't congratulate yourself too much for outplaying him or getting in his head, either. You had him beat twice, once with the nuts, and he folded once and shoved once.

It's not hard but he seemed to be on tilt slightly and I figured the best was to get him to stick chips in would be to let him get more worked up as I was the only one putting up any resistance against him on our table and the only hands he was losing were against me, I'd flipped over 7/2 against him as well and I didn't want to come across as to confident so i took the line I always do when I'm in a pot pretty deep, head down and don't look.

As explained I think the shove had to do with me talknig to him then shoving on him and basically being in the opposite position.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

You're being a bit condescending when I really don't see any reason for you being. As explained earlier I don't play much live poker and going off what I've read online not giving a chip count is not bad etiquette. If I knew it was if I'd previously asked for a chip count I wouldn't have created this thread. You say I don't see why you wouldn't give a chip count, the reasoning is pretty much in the body of the original post. I was unaware of the etiquette regarding it and I saw it as the most +ev option.

Whenever you do something that's bad etiquette you are being a douchbag. Next time you go to a wedding and the bride dress looks bad, tell her. Then start a thread and get all defensive when someone points out you were being a douchbag.

Rather than saying OK I screwed up I wont do that again you keep posting reasons why you think its OK.

Im still not sure you understand why its bad etiquette to ask for chip counts and not give them because if you did why would you write this

I know it's not a rule violation, the thread never sugested it was a rule violation.

I'd always thought a count was optional to the one being asked. If I asked him and I was later involved in a pot with someone else and they asked me would I have to give it to them?

 

[baudib1]

OP, you're like that guy who gives Internet players a bad name.

Tom Dwan asks for chip counts because he is trying to find inflection points and using game-theory optimal betsizing.

Trying to piss someone off so they stack off is the textbook definition of being a douchebag.

Live players will freely give away ridiculous amounts of information if you simply act civil and vaguely friendly.

Arguing about what you did not being a violation makes you an angleshooting douchebag.

 

[OzExorcist]

Important question: was there a dealer running the game, or was it self-dealt?

Players are entitled to an answer if they ask how much you have. The idea that you're allowed to not answer comes from games where there is a dealer at the table who can count your chips and provide an answer if you refuse to.

If the game is self-dealt and there's no dealer at the table to do that, I think you're obliged to answer yourself, or at least arrange your chips in a manner such that the player can visually count them himself.

As an aside, I can't find mention of this in either the rules or etiquette sections of Robert's Rules so this is really going to be down to the individual card room to decide. But my understanding is in all cases the player should be entitled to an answer: it's just a question of whether it's you or the dealer that gives it to them.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Important question: was there a dealer running the game, or was it self-dealt?

Players are entitled to an answer if they ask how much you have. The idea that you're allowed to not answer comes from games where there is a dealer at the table who can count your chips and provide an answer if you refuse to.

If the game is self-dealt and there's no dealer at the table to do that, I think you're obliged to answer yourself, or at least arrange your chips in a manner such that the player can visually count them himself.

As an aside, I can't find mention of this in either the rules or etiquette sections of Robert's Rules so this is really going to be down to the individual card room to decide. But my understanding is in all cases the player should be entitled to an answer: it's just a question of whether it's you or the dealer that gives it to them.

The game had a dealer as well as my chips being arranged in easy stacks to count with high denomination chips at the front. After the hand the dealer confirmed I had broken no rules but didn't comment on etiquette, he just says it varies from player to player and from place to place. I don't think I obviously broke any etiquette code as I think the dealer would've said.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I don't think I obviously broke any etiquette code as I think the dealer would've said.

Its not the dealers place to teach you etiquette and manners, infact its probably wise for him to stay out of such matters as they are not enforceable by rules and give the appearance that the house is siding with one player or another.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Whenever you do something that's bad etiquette you are being a douchbag. Next time you go to a wedding and the bride dress looks bad, tell her. Then start a thread and get all defensive when someone points out you were being a douchbag.

Rather than saying OK I screwed up I wont do that again you keep posting reasons why you think its OK.

Im still not sure you understand why its bad etiquette to ask for chip counts and not give them because if you did why would you write this

I'm not getting all defensive because someone said I'm acting like a douchebag, I'm explaining why I did it and why I thought those actions were correct. Going off the comments from here it is nowhere near as clear cut as you are making it sound. If I listen to some it was fine, if I listen to others it's not. Hardly the clarity that would confirm that my actions were incorrect.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I'm not getting all defensive because someone said I'm acting like a douchebag, I'm explaining why I did it and why I thought those actions were correct. Going off the comments from here it is nowhere near as clear cut as you are making it sound. If I listen to some it was fine, if I listen to others it's not. Hardly the clarity that would confirm that my actions were incorrect.

If you cant see why asking for chip counts and then not giving them when asked is bad etiquette, then its pointless continuing this discussion with you.

 

[BlueNowhere]

OP, you're like that guy who gives Internet players a bad name.

Tom Dwan asks for chip counts because he is trying to find inflection points and using game-theory optimal betsizing.

Trying to piss someone off so they stack off is the textbook definition of being a douchebag.

Live players will freely give away ridiculous amounts of information if you simply act civil and vaguely friendly.

Arguing about what you did not being a violation makes you an angleshooting douchebag.

I'm not arguing that what I did wasn't a violation, I'm well aware that it was not which disqualifies this from being an angle shot as it is clear as day that it falls well within the rules and lies more with inexperience of live play than an angle shot.

 

[baudib1]

"I'm not guilty of bad etiquette, I was just trying to piss you off."

 

[BlueNowhere]

If you cant see why asking for chip counts and then not giving them when asked is bad etiquette, then its pointless continuing this discussion with you.

I've just looked through the thread and not including myself two regard this as bad etiquette and three don't. It doesn't matter if I ask them, they choose to answer me. It seems like a really marginal etiquette thing to me seen as though people on here are split as to whether they regard it as bad etiquette or not. I don't see how you can say with utmost certainty it is when 3 out of 5 don't think it is.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

I've just looked through the thread and not including myself two regard this as bad etiquette and three don't. It doesn't matter if I ask them, they choose to answer me. It seems like a really marginal etiquette thing to me seen as though people on here are split as to whether they regard it as bad etiquette or not. I don't see how you can say with utmost certainty it is when 3 out of 5 don't think it is.

Keep doing it then.

 

[BlueNowhere]

OP, you are arguing it's not bad etiquette because...why exactly? Because you were trying to piss him off to win his chips and it's your goal to win chips? Do you think this makes any sense?

I'm arguing that I've never seen it anywhere that it is bad etiquette and I've also seen similr situations at other live tourneys where one guy has asked for a chip count but not given one (he didn't not give it to the same guy who asked him, hence my question earlier in the thread) and an older guy thought it was against the rule, called the manager over who said it was legit, talk then turned to whether it was acceptable etiquette and general consensus was yes. At the one involving me nearly everoyne said it wasn't apart from a few younger guys which is what confused me and why I wrote this thread.

 

[BlueNowhere]

"I'm not guilty of bad etiquette, I was just trying to piss you off."

People know min-raising pisses alot of people off, it doesn't make it bad etiqeutte. People know tabling 7/2o when you've bluffed a big pot will piss people off, it doesn't make it bad etiquette. I don't think me trying to do it to piss someone off and make him play badly qualifies it as bad etiquette.

 

[baudib1]

OP how about you try to use common sense and human decency when deciding how you should act instead of looking it up on online poker forums.

What exactly is your case that it's not bad etiquette? That three Internet poker people say it's OK?

I mean, seriously WTF. The reason you think it's OK to act like an ass is because you want to piss him off!

 

[baudib1]

People know min-raising pisses alot of people off, it doesn't make it bad etiqeutte. People know tabling 7/2o when you've bluffed a big pot will piss people off, it doesn't make it bad etiquette. I don't think me trying to do it to piss someone off and make him play badly qualifies it as bad etiquette.

Min-raising and showing bluffs are legitimate strategies. Acting like an asshole is not, at least it's not if you want to defend your etiquette.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

BlueNowhere: hey can you pass the salt
Normalperson: sure
NprmalPerson: hey can you pass the pepper
BlueNowhere: get it yourself
NormalPerson: your a douch
BlueNowhere: I think you will find I'm not contractually obliged to pass anything.
NormalPerson: but I just passed you the salt
BlueNowhere: that was your decision
NormalPerson: you really are a douch
BlueNowhere: Im going to start a thread on cardschat and ignore anyone who disagrees with me
NormalPerson: LOL you really are a douch

 

[TheKAAHK]

After much deliberation of this problem, having seen it happen and both doing and having this been done to me, I have come to a conclusion:

You were being a douchebag.

 

[BlueNowhere]

OP how about you try to use common sense and human decency when deciding how you should act instead of looking it up on online poker forums.

What exactly is your case that it's not bad etiquette? That three Internet poker people say it's OK?

I mean, seriously WTF. The reason you think it's OK to act like an ass is because you want to piss him off!

No thats not my case for it being ok, it was a counter argument to two of you beng against it therefore it is bad etiquette.

Human decency? It's poker. My objective is to take money form other less skilled people, I'm not really bothered who I win the money from. Human decency doesn't come into a game where you consistently prey on weak players. If someone decides to sell their house to play onine poker then I'm more than happy to take that money fom them, if I decided to leave the table where they were at then you'd have plenty of others more than willing to part them from their money. Human decency doens't come into a game where you prey an relentlessly expose peoples weaknesses.

My poker actions are based on ev, if something is +ev I do it, -ev I don't. As a poker player your one objective is to part people from their money.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Human decency? It's poker. My objective is to take money form other less skilled people, I'm not really bothered who I win the money from. Human decency doesn't come into a game where you consistently prey on weak players. If someone decides to sell their house to play onine poker then I'm more than happy to take that money fom them

WOW your going to have to play a lot of $3.50 tournaments to get someones house

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/3-50-nlhe-mtt-tough-hand-201883/

 

[BlueNowhere]

WOW your going to have to play a lot of $3.50 tournaments to get someones house

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/3-50-nlhe-mtt-tough-hand-201883/

Not really anything to do with the point but ok.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

Not really anything to do with the point but ok.

Well you were kind of making out you played at levels where you had the opptunity to play for someones house.

What you really should have said was

Human decency? It's poker. My objective is to take money form other less skilled people, I'm not really bothered who I win the money from. Human decency doesn't come into a game where you consistently prey on weak players. If someone decides to sell their slippers to play onine poker then I'm more than happy to take that money fom them