Is poker "gambling"?

[TheNoob]

Poker is gambling. Period.

The good news is that with poker, you have the opportunity to control when and how you get your money in. The best you can do is learn and improve your game to the point that the odds get closer to being in your favor by consistently making the correct decisions.

Profitable poker comes from making the correct decisions when it's time to decide when and how much you gamble.

Anyone who thinks they are not gambling when they play poker is fooling themself.


ETA:

Examples of poker that aren't really gambling:

1- Players making the appropriate +EV plays in hands

It's still gambling. You're just doing it with better odds.

Proof of this is all the times you lose when you are +EV.

 

[dj11]

Agree with Stu that words have specific meanings. Problem is there is no perfect specificity as to definitions in MOST cases. Concrete definitions can describe simple things like 'circle, ball, flat, wavy, dog, cat (very generic), etc.

Words and combos of words help humans describe concepts. When we start making combination's of words we open ourselves up to interpretations. This can not be avoided. If it were avoidable, the legal system would be perfectly understood by everyone, and we would all know advanced calculus, because each word was absolutely defined. Easy way to describe this interpretation is to ask you to define your first love. Do you think any of us would agree?

The underlying concept of gambling is very close to the concept of investing (risk for gain). While the concept of investing has garnered the cloak of respectability, the concept of gambling has had too many charlatans for too many years and respectability is mostly lacking, but the risk for gain part of it remains.

I believe at its heart the difference between investing and poker (don't see it as gambling) is time. For any individual play, investing or a single poker hand, circumstances beyond our control weigh heavy. A poker hand plays out quickly, whereas a loan (you loan money to someone when buying a stock) takes time to bear fruit or perish.

In investments, the equivalent to a poker starting hands chart is 'diversify'.

It has always been easier for the government to track investment money than poker money, and somewhere along the line the government got the opportunity to regulate, and tax investment money. So while the topic of this thread is specific "Is poker gambling" the concepts involved are so much bigger. And the implications even larger.

All that said there is another aspect of investments that can not be compared to poker, but still can be compared to gambling. Other than new ways to gamble, there is little widespread opportunity for innovation with gambling. With investments however there is that slight opportunity to innovate, or improve something that can benefit all humanity. Some of those opportunities pan out, most don't.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

I like "cloak of respectability" most in there...

 

[dj11]

I like "cloak of respectability" most in there...

.....at last...a little (very little indeed) respect.......

 

[KoRnholio]

It's still gambling. You're just doing it with better odds.

Proof of this is all the times you lose when you are +EV.

gamble
1 play games of chance for money; bet:

2 take risky action in the hope of a desired result:

Under definition #1 you are correct, it is gambling.
Under definition #2 (the most accurate definition of gambling, IMO) poker isn't necessarily gambling.

Let's consider some basic examples.

1) I offer to let you roll one 6-sided die ONCE at a cost of $1. If you roll a 6, I give you $5, any other number you win nothing. This is slightly -EV. As for risk, is losing $1 or winning $5 really "risky"? Maybe to some it is.

Verdict: Probably gambling

2) I offer to let you roll one 6-sided die ONCE at a cost of $1. If you roll a 6, I give you $7, any other number you win nothing. This is slightly +EV. As for risk, you are again losing $1 or winning $7. Is it "risky"? 5 out of 6 times you are still losing the same $1, and only winning $2 more than the previous example if you win.

Verdict: Probably still gambling

3) I offer to let you roll one 6-sided die ONCE at a cost of $1000. Whether I let you roll with a positive or negative EV, I'd still say it's gambling either way now, since you are just allowed to do it ONCE and now the stakes are high, increasing the risk.

Verdict: Definitely gambling

4) Now let's say I will let you roll the dice as many times as you want in the +EV scenario, and you have enough of a bankroll to ride out any downswings/losing streaks. Is this gambling? If you roll the dice enough times in the +EV game that you are properly bankrolled for, there is no risk. You aren't "hoping" to win. You will mathematically/statistically come out a winner.

Notice that we need certain conditions to be sure to win:
- not limited to a single or small number of tries/games
- an appropriate bankroll to ensure we are able to reach our expected +EV

Verdict: Likely not gambling

Some additional notes-

True, there will never be 0 risk in practice. Even being "properly" bankrolled means there is still a tiny chance of going broke. Just the same as each time you cross the street there is a tiny chance that you'll be hit by a car. But crossing the street isn't considered "risky" because that risk is so small it isn't even considered a risk.

 

[pifan]

what if we use a 7 sided die?

 

[TheNoob]

4)

Now let's say I will let you roll the dice as many times as you want in the +EV scenario, and you have enough of a bankroll to ride out any downswings/losing streaks. Is this gambling? If you roll the dice enough times in the +EV game that you are properly bankrolled for, there is no risk. You aren't "hoping" to win. You will mathematically/statistically come out a winner.

Can it be gambling if the outcome is a statistical certainty?

Good question. I guess not.

Hard to compare this analogy to poker, though, because rolling the dice you KNOW you are +EV.

In a poker hand, you can make a educated guess based on your expertise
and your reads , but it's still just a guess that you are +EV.

 

[Stu_Ungar]

When was the last time that someone to offered to play a game with you where the outcome is a statistical certainty stacked in your favour?

 

[KoRnholio]

When was the last time that someone to offered to play a game with you where the outcome is a statistical certainty stacked in your favour?

IMO it's really not that different that playing against people who call down with bottom pair or chase draws regardless of the odds. Bet enough that they are getting the wrong odds, watch them call, collect the EV in the long run!

Hard to compare this analogy to poker, though, because rolling the dice you KNOW you are +EV.

In a poker hand, you can make a educated guess based on your expertise
and your reads , but it's still just a guess that you are +EV.

True poker is like a soft science compared to my example. But when you see players playing way too loose and badly, it's a pretty safe assumption that if you play even remotely well, you will be +EV against them.

I like the earlier post (forgot who posted it) where they explained that poker is still risky/gambling to the public, while investments with high risk aren't considered gambling. A good investment banker could look at a company's stats, or a portfolio, or whatever, and make changes/buys/sells based on their expertise and previous experience. This would give them a very likely +EV situation.

I don't see poker as being too different from this. There's plenty of things that allow you to take the gamble out of poker. If you're at a tougher cash game table where you aren't sure if you have an edge/+EV, you can always get up and change tables. If your table is playing in a certain manner that might reduce your edge, there may be ways to change your play/image/etc to swing it back into the positive.

 

[darkassassin89]

I cant even add anything to this quite complex discusion now you guys all make me feel like a dummy

 

[cdidit622]

I really don't believe poker is a gamble. People feel that the money issue makes it a gamble. The money is not used as a purchase or wager of chance. People must realize that money act as an item to play the game with. For Christians that believe otherwise are you telling me that Bingo night at churches is more or less gambling then poker? Bingo you are waiting and hoping that your number and letter is call. Without money this ( Bingo ) is still a gamble because you have no control of what letter or number will be call., and if your lucky enough to win you will recieve a prize. In poker the money is use just like chips. It's not like the game strategy is different. In poker if I miss the flop, my hand does not automatically forfeit. If I have the "skill" to bluff successfully then I will win. You never know what the other players have and the outcome is not only base on a one and only scenario. If poker meant that every one calls and all 5 cards must be dealt and everyone must call then that will be a gamble . The option to bluff or fold at will seperates gamble from skills. Even if some people hit the best hand they lose If another player use their skills to win!

 

[xtrigemino]

Lot of people think poker is kind of sport :S
So complicated say that, anyway poker it's a lot of other things like attitude, patience, strategy, etc.

 

[dj11]

On a lighter note, every time I see this thread I want to answer it;

Not the way I play!

 

[Poker Orifice]

If you're a good player who believes they have an edge over the field they are playing... & typically over a long period (MTT play here), you've shown that you have a decent return on investment.... then is this 'gambling'? I don't look at it as being gambling.
Compare it to something like a financial investor.... let's say 'stock market'. For me, investing in the stock market would likely be a gamble because I have very little experience with it (although for sure I would do my homework prior to, in hopes of gaining a significant edge). BUT for others (my boss for example) would I imply it's a gamble for him? Not likely as he kicks back in his multi-million dollar home, wondering which new sportscar to buy himself for Christmas, what new apt. buildings to pick up in the new year, etc.
I look at poker similiarly to this.

 

[Poker Orifice]

gamble
verb
[no object]
1 play games of chance for money; bet:
he gambles on football
[with object] bet (a sum of money):
they gambled their money on cards
2 take risky action in the hope of a desired result:
he was gambling on the success of his satellite TV channel
noun
[usually in singular]
1 an act of gambling.
2 a risky action undertaken with the hope of success:
we decided to take a gamble and offer him a place on our staff

Origin:
early 18th century: from obsolete gamel 'play games', or from the verb game

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0325700#m_en_gb0325700

From the first definition, any game that involves at least some element of chance and the wagering of money on the outcome, is gambling. This would include poker, sports betting, bingo, paper rock scissors (for money), even picking/buying-selling stocks.

I think most people consider gambling as the last definition listed- a risky action undertaken with the hope of success. I think it could very easily be argued that a player who demonstrates skill at the game over a large sample can greatly reduce the element of risk/chance sufficiently for this definition to no longer hold for them.

Examples of gambling in poker:

1- Players chasing draws with the wrong odds or regardless of the odds they are getting, whether they understand the odds or not.
2- Players playing above their bankroll and/or skill level hoping to win

Examples of poker that aren't really gambling:

1- Players making the appropriate +EV plays in hands
2- Players playing within their bankroll as to minimize their risk of ruin (going broke)

Another key aspect of this definition of gambling keys in on the word
"hope". Players that are "hoping" to win are gambling. Players who can use their knowledge and skills (mathematical and/or psychology and/or memory and/or experience) to produce consistent results, aren't really gambling.

Reread that last paragraph thinking in terms of stock picking and you'll see that it's virtually the same as poker. If you are good at it, much of the uncertainty/hoping is removed, as is the "gamble" of it. If you aren't good at it, you're basically gambling.

Pretty much what he said. Especially this > If you are good at it, much of the uncertainty/hoping is removed, as is the "gamble" of it. If you aren't good at it, you're basically gambling

 

[Poker Orifice]

When certain friends ask me (when they call me on the telephone & can hear the background noises of chips, etc.), "Oh, are you gambling again right now?" I always reply, "Nope, just making a few investments at the moment. Pretty sure some of the others on these tables are 'gambling' though."

 

[Stu_Ungar]

When certain friends ask me (when they call me on the telephone & can hear the background noises of chips, etc.), "Oh, are you gambling again right now?" I always reply, "Nope, just making a few investments at the moment. Pretty sure some of the others on these tables are 'gambling' though."

They probably assume this means you are in denial.

 

[Pokerstudent]

Was thinking that I might have a conversation with my pastor about this.

Note: Non-religious people tune out for a minute.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only real time Jesus got upset about the gambling was when they did it in the sanctuary. So he was ticked, cause that's HIS HOUSE! I'd be ticked too if I came home and people were playing poker in my house without permission.

Other than that, I believe it falls under the same category as ...say drinking. Think it says in the Bible (if you believe what it says) that doing things to excess that is the issue. Drink, but don't drink to excess. I would assume that excess is where it starts to negatively impact your life. You would have to decide that for yourself.

But given that everyone who plays should be playing EITHER for entertainment or to make money, there shouldn't be an issue if you're a christian.

Just my $0.02.

 

[KoRnholio]

"Nope, just making a few investments at the moment.

Short term, high risk investments for the win!

 

[BelgoSuisse]

But given that everyone who plays should be playing EITHER for entertainment or to make money, there shouldn't be an issue if you're a christian.

By this criterion, prostitution is also fine for christians...

 

[darkassassin89]

Ahhhhh no.

 

[cAPSLOCK]

By this criterion, prostitution is also fine for christians...

The real sticky part of this line of thought is the Bible has nothing at all to say about gambling. It exhorts against avarice, and lack of charity. Prohibitions on gambling have been cultural interpretations and have little to no scriptural foundations.

On the subject of prostitution the book is quite clear. But we have cut and paste that to our desire as well. More than one prostitute plays important role in the old testament, God instructs a prophet to marry one (Hosea and Gomer), and another is a heroine (Rahab). And Jesus hung around lots of them, forgave and loved them.

1. Poker is gambling.
2. I see no reason this in itself is "unchristian".
3. If you are addicted, irresponsible etc, then you have a problem that underlies gambling and should eliminate it work on the root problem.
4. If you feel convinced that gambling might be a sin for you read Rom 14 and make up your own mind what to do.

I, as a christian have no problem with it as long as it is in balance.

 

[darkassassin89]

The real sticky part of this line of thought is the Bible has nothing at all to say about gambling. It exhorts against avarice, and lack of charity. Prohibitions on gambling have been cultural interpretations and have little to no scriptural foundations.

On the subject of prostitution the book is quite clear. But we have cut and paste that to our desire as well. More than one prostitute plays important role in the old testament, God instructs a prophet to marry one (Hosea and Gomer), and another is a heroine (Rahab). And Jesus hung around lots of them, forgave and loved them.

1. Poker is gambling.
2. I see no reason this in itself is "unchristian".
3. If you are addicted, irresponsible etc, then you have a problem that underlies gambling and should eliminate it work on the root problem.
4. If you feel convinced that gambling might be a sin for you read Rom 14 and make up your own mind what to do.

I, as a christian have no problem with it as long as it is in balance.

amen :dito: :dito: :dito: :knuddel:

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Another note... One of the main verses used to justify the gambling=sin argument is actually a very nice 14 word summation of good bankroll management.

Proverbs 13:11
Wealth gained hastily will dwindle, but whoever gathers little by little will increase it.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

Prohibitions on gambling have been cultural interpretations and have little to no scriptural foundations.

The distinction between cultural interpretations and scripture is a very arbitrary one. The definition of what is considered scripture and what is not - i.e. the biblical canon - is itself a highly cultural thing and varies widely between christian creeds. And obviously jewish and islamic canons differ even more, even though they do have significant overlap.