The New UIGEA Regulations and what You can do to Fight Them

[feitr]

The problem is that when Democrats are voting on poker, they know if they vote for it the Republican running against them in 2010 will use it against them. "they voted against saving our families and children from the evils of online gambling". We need to show them that those aren't the only people voting, that there are poker players who vote too and they are all watching.

This argument has almost 0 credibility imo. It is precisely those individuals who have gambling problems who will be the ones to circumvent this law. I don't think anybody can make a moral argument for this that isn't very superficial, as those who pathologically gamble will continue to pathologically gamble. It is those casual gamblers that will be hit hard by this. Unfortunately, since most of these arguments are based on emotional appeal, it probably doesn't matter to alot of the population whether or not the law actually does any "moral good". Even if it is clearly about the inability of the US to regulate online gambling (i presume, i haven't read much on it), nobody is actually going to out and state that.

And even if online poker doesn't die (esp. for non-americans as it isn't like the sites that do not allow americans are tough) this will definitely dry up the games to a much greater extent than did the original UIGEA, which apparantly was quite significant. All the donators now will be "non-american" and it will continue to the point that the only americans left playing will be very solid winning players. So traffic on sites like tilt/PS will be greatly decreased as a good portion of the really bad, and just a little bad, population will have to stop playing (i would be VERY interested to know the % of americans and non-americans on tilt/PS). And as all the american fish leave, non-american players will probably migrate to non-US sites that still have plenty of fish.

Not to mention this seems like a logistical nightmare, especially with the economy as it is now. Fortunately, this deals with all online gambling so there will also be significant opposition from sports bettors, online casino users, etc., which will increase the size and force of the US-based population that is against implementing this legislation.

 

[smeg]

If I am not mistaken(will look for the text in the bill) the bill will make it a felony to "place or receive" a wager online. Gonna go look for the text.

 

[zachvac]

If I am not mistaken(will look for the text in the bill) the bill will make it a felony to "place or receive" a wager online. Gonna go look for the text.

This is false. Playing poker is not made illegal. Banks transferring to "illegal gambling" companies is illegal. It's not even clear that poker is illegal gambling but as of now banks simply overblock because there is no penalty for overblocking and there is a penalty if they don't attempt to block and they are sued/audited/whatever happens. The PPA among other things is currently bringing a suit to attempt to clarify just that. If a court can rule that poker is not illegal gambling, hopefully the banks will not block the transactions.

 

[smeg]

hmmm..thats what I got from this part of the bill...

In order to establish a violation of the UIGEA, it must be shown that: (1) A person was engaged in the business of betting or wagering;
(2) That person knowingly accepted a financial instrument or proceeds thereof; and,
(3) That instrument was accepted (by the person) in connection with the participation of another person in “unlawful Internet gambling.”

the Act broadly defines a “bet or wager” as: the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

 

[zachvac]

hmmm..thats what I got from this part of the bill...

In order to establish a violation of the UIGEA, it must be shown that: (1) A person was engaged in the business of betting or wagering;
(2) That person knowingly accepted a financial instrument or proceeds thereof; and,
(3) That instrument was accepted (by the person) in connection with the participation of another person in “unlawful Internet gambling.”

the Act broadly defines a “bet or wager” as: the staking or risking by any person of something of value upon the outcome of a contest, a sporting event, or a game subject to chance, upon an agreement or understanding that the person or another person will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome.

I actually have not seen the real text, do you have a link to that? From what I understand though, read this again:

(2) That person knowingly accepted a financial instrument or proceeds thereof

In particular the word ACCEPTED. No poker player accepts a wager or bet, playing is never made illegal.

 

[smeg]

I would tend to disagree with you on that but it is something we could go back and forth on and I am no legal expert, just a layman. Here's a link to the PDF of the bill....http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Articles-Notes/Internet-gambling-prohibition-2006.pdf

Correct me if I am wrong on this. I would like to understand the details a little better.

 

[zachvac]

I would tend to disagree with you on that but it is something we could go back and forth on and I am no legal expert, just a layman. Here's a link to the PDF of the bill....http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Articles-Notes/Internet-gambling-prohibition-2006.pdf

Correct me if I am wrong on this. I would like to understand the details a little better.

Well I'm getting all my information from two PPA board members who post over at 2+2 in the legislation section. So while I can't say as a primary source that I'm right, I'm pretty sure they are. I'll look at the pdf though, thanks.

 

[smeg]

NP, yea I am no authority on the subject and all the "experts" are saying I am wrong. Thats cool with me, I am just trying to understand WHY I am wrong. Found a site just now that may help clear thing up a bit but it will take some time to read and digest it.....Lawrence G. Walters, First Amendment Attorney - Publications & Articles

 

[gtycoon]

I am fully planning on writing to all involvd to voice my opinion. This really should piss off any poker player that this crap is going on. This country has far greater problems to deal with and this was made a top priority. It has to be that the casionos have gotten deep in president Bush's pockets.

Geez man go away already

On another note won't this open another business of sorts for people online. I know CC does not advocate player transfers but wouldnt a silly law like this male sites like this to opn up to that idea.

Also I have made a few good friends on sites like Pokerstars people I really trust. Really nothing anyone can do to stop transfers between us.

The government needs to get their noses out of this. Resposible adults should be able to spend their money as they wish if it is the exact same thing I can go and do live it should be legal online.

I'm all for fighting. I think boycotts are the best, like the boycott Kentucky deal that is going on because they are suing for the poker domains. They dont read our letters, and they don't represent the people any more. Best thing people can do is support small businesses instead of going to Fridays,
and McDonalds. Small hardware stores if you can find one that wasnt run out of business. This is much much bigger than poker. It's 1% of the population that is herding us like sheep and fleesing us.

 

[rugby0]

Does anyone have an update on the north carolina skill
versus chance lawsuit?

 

[icecold24k]

I just wrote to my congressmen also as I did a few months ago. I really hope we can get enough people together to stop the ridiculous laws they are putting into place. Its hard enough now as it is for an American player to deposit without more legislation to make it even tougher.

 

[zachvac]

Hey Folks,
I have been warning folks that a dem take over of the government will spell the end of online poker in the US. The dems cant stand anything that makes money without them being able to stick their hands in it.
Ebay better have a strong lobby. The Democrats have been trying to tax the internet for the last 8 yrs. The hated George Bush has been stopping this. We are going to suffer.

lol? The Dems want to tax and regulate, GOP wants to ban. In general, the Dems are the ones we want in office, but obviously plenty of GOP friends and Dem opponents. The ppa has a list of their ratings of individuals in Congress.

Personally I'd want to legalize and not tax/regulate (beyond the basic income tax that I and other honest people already pay), but if the options are illegal or legal but taxed, I'll take the 2nd every day of the week.

 

[Freakakanus]

Hey Folks,
I have been warning folks that a dem take over of the government will spell the end of online poker in the US. The dems cant stand anything that makes money without them being able to stick their hands in it.
Ebay better have a strong lobby. The Democrats have been trying to tax the internet for the last 8 yrs. The hated George Bush has been stopping this. We are going to suffer.

^^^^^You sir are an idiot......


Sen. Bill Frist(R) introduced this bill and tacked it onto a port security bill that was passed by a (then) Republican congress and signed into law by President George Bush(R)...........



I know... blame Obama and his Racist/Muslim ties to the fact Bush in his lame duck session wants to cram this through now.........

 

[Ice Caverns]

Ya I havnt been able to deposit on Fill Tilt, so ive been slaving away trying to win a freerole.

 

[icemonkey9]

Well, since the UIGEA was introduced it's been "harder" to deposit on sites. Any debit-related credit card is pretty much denied. My friend deposited on FullTilt using her visa card just fine in August of 2008. Many people use either the prepaid credit cards, or do the wire transfer. Even "if" (please no no no) the UIGEA passes, you could potentially deposit within the united states doing a wire transfer since it'd be impossible for anyone to trace ...

Anyways ... I did get an email from the PPA saying the election results were extremely positive for pro-poker. But, it's just wait and see at this point.

 

[razzmachine]

PPA

I joined the PPA because of this bill.

 

[trouble92]

It should'nt surprise anyone that Bush will continue to pass his God like legislation up until the very end. The only good thing is it will end soon, not soon enough for me but, it's all I have to look forward to where he is concerned.

 

[mooleyjones]

Well, first of all they put these little gambling bills into another bill, which cloaks it from most of us. Who would have realized that the port aurthority bill had the internet gambling stuff in it.
What we also need to do is write obama and tell him that if a bill is passed it should have just one subject in it not a bunch of stuff stuck into the bill.
Sure maybe congress will have to work harder but screw em, Hahaha.
I talked to an English site quite awhile ago, way before this all started, and trust me sites are loosing money without our money.
ANyway, they would be willing to pay the USA tax type money for allowing us to play. That's no. one. They make a ton of money and want our dollars.
As for big brother, yes, this has been going on for a long long time. There are rumors about the USA taxing and allowing internet gambling, which isn't against the law really it's just depositing etc. But with the ecomomy the way it is right now I think they're gonna be focusing on other things for the moment.
I for one am old and am tired of the Govt telling me how to live my life, and what's healthy and what to eat drink and not smoke......but the FDA can put out all this medication that kills you and allow them to advertize it on primetime TV. That's ok.
ANyway that's my thoughts and sorry for half the stuff not being capitolized etc but I'm angry...........hahaha

 

[bustermoves]

Wow I can't believe this actually passed...writing right now. So you guys think this will actually go through or will be overturned by the time it goes into effect?

well, ill be the devils advocate here,far be it for me to speak my mind.unless every online poker room and casino suddenly decides to give uncle sam a cut of the take,the days of U.S. players ,playing on line are over....for now.of course thats not to say it wont change,but i,myself wont be getting my hopes up.as any one from the U.S. knows,our government(being kind here)is corrupt beyond belief,hence the nightmare we now have.now that ive been on the phone for 45 minutes,ive kind of lost my train of thought,about where i was going with this.lets see if i can get back on track here........................................oh yeah......im going to use poker stars as an example,since,as far as i know ,they are the largest poker room out there.as i write this there are currently,170000 plus people playing at stars,and they havent reached there peak for the day yet.imagine the money they are going to loose,when over night there peak drops to 60 to 80 thousand players.thats going to be a severe hit in the pocket book.and one by one the smaller rooms will dissappear.the online casinos, icant say what will happen to them,since ive never seen a player count at any of them,but more than likely, they will suffer the same fate.now you may ask,why,oh why is our benevolent,and loving government doing this to us.the answear to that is very simple.GREED.but who is at fault?is it the us government wanting a cut from the online rooms to keep the u.s. market open,or is it the online rooms refusing to pay to keep the u.s. market,or is it the u.s. players themselves,not reporting or paying taxes on there winnings.or is it just a vicious circle,and no one is really to blame.i, for one,am not qualified to answear these questions.i really dont think any one person can.i dont belive a total ban of online gambling is the answear,its a little too 1984ish for my tastes.for those of you who didnt get that one,1984 is a book by george orwell,written back in the 40"s or 50"s.they also made it into a movie,google it for more info.back a year or so ago,there was a post like this:white man speak with forked tounge.by that ,i mean the government will tell you what ever it is you want to hear,but will do what ever they want.dont belive that?google rico laws.basicly what it says,is that its ok to violate the constitution to enforce the laws.so, bottom line,the uiega regulations are a direct violation of your constitutional rights as a u.s. citizen.they get around that little road block with rico laws.and there you have it ,ladies and gentlemen,big brother is alive and well.

 

[joeytripper]

This UIGEA thing is really odd... I hope Obama will be able to turn things around , at least more than bush ever did! It would be great to see the americans back online at the pokersites.

 

[thetaxman1]

What about setting up an offshore bank account to fund your poker enterprises. Maybe we should just take our investments in poker out of the good ole USA. It is sure a shame to see our personal freedoms eroded so. I enjoy my online poker. I have a budget and am not hurting anyone. If I want to spend some money online what the hay. I can drive down to the local casinos and blow thousands and thats perfectly ok but putting a hundred bucks in my online account is now illegal that is so lame.

We should be trying to get these companies in states so they can be taxed on their earnings.

 

[mooleyjones]

For some reason I think thats hard to do now. I was asking a friend of mine in canada awhile back.......it wasn't that easy and I can't remember what she said.
The thing is. It would be fine just to deposint and play, but if u really win big money, or it seem like any money pretty soon you won't beable to get it here to spend it........Alot of those banks are reporting to the USA now.....pretty sad, but its ok if these huge companies have offshore stuff.
Im glad I'm old anymore...........ANDDDDDDD our govt gets around it by the Patriat act..........

 

[zachvac]

For some reason I think thats hard to do now. I was asking a friend of mine in Canada awhile back.......it wasn't that easy and I can't remember what she said.
The thing is. It would be fine just to deposint and play, but if u really win big money, or it seem like any money pretty soon you won't beable to get it here to spend it........Alot of those banks are reporting to the USA now.....pretty sad, but its ok if these huge companies have offshore stuff.
Im glad I'm old anymore...........ANDDDDDDD our govt gets around it by the Patriat act..........

The recent regulations protect withdrawals. If you can get the money on you can get it off.

 

[jimboliah]

I sent my letters and even called my two Texas senate offices to voice my discust with the GOP.
I really think it is more about control of the Internet than gambling.
I earnestly believe the Democrats will repeal this law within the next year and I believe the best approach is to bombard the Demo's with mail, email and phone calls demanding action.

 

[blankoblanco]

very interesting new article on the UIGEA supposedly written by an authority on gambling law. basically claims the gov gave up/weren't able to implement the restrictions they were seeking

http://www.compatiblepoker.com/final-uigea.cms.htm