My journey back to square 1

[mrmonkey]

Phil, I'm sorry to hear that your bankroll was victim to what I assume was some tilt-induced loss chasing.

I'm currently doing some research on an article I'm drafting about loss chasing. I think one of the things that helps us internalize what has happened after losing a bankroll is to talk about it and analyze what the primary causes and triggers for it were.

It may help you to see what the problem was and if there is a pattern to it so that you can catch yourself when something like that shows up in the future.

If you'd like to, I'd encourage you to tell us what happened and how your bankroll ended up at zero.

 

[Aldito]

You know what I'm going to motivate you.

I'm at 488k PS play chips right now. I had more, but that's on FullTilt. Every day I will update this thread and won't stop until I hit 20 million. It will be done very quickly I can assure you. I'll post the good days and the bad. Come along for the ride.

As bad as the players at 2nl are, they're not even close to how bad the standard is in play money games.

There isn't a bigger waste of time on the planet than play money poker. Just deposit $100 and play 2nl. If you can't afford to do that, then quit poker, because you definitely can't afford to be be playing 2nl for $1 or $2 per hour.

Phil, I'm sorry to hear that your bankroll was victim to what I assume was some tilt-induced loss chasing.

I'm currently doing some research on an article I'm drafting about loss chasing. I think one of the things that helps us internalize what has happened after losing a bankroll is to talk about it and analyze what the primary causes and triggers for it were.

It may help you to see what the problem was and if there is a pattern to it so that you can catch yourself when something like that shows up in the future.

If you'd like to, I'd encourage you to tell us what happened and how your bankroll ended up at zero.

No, what happens is that when people play outside of their limits, the psychological effect of 1 bad beat is so much more devastating. For example, if you have 100 buyins and even lose 5 in a row due to disgusting beats, you'll find a way to laugh it off. Whereas if you have 10 buyins, even losing 1 takes such a huge chunk of your bankroll away.

Just stick to proper BRM. As someone who broke it for ages when I first played, and now very rarely does, I know that not sticking to BRM is one of the biggest obstructions to becoming a profitable player.

 

[Liveone1]

As bad as the players at 2nl are, they're not even close to how bad the standard is in play money games.

There isn't a bigger waste of time on the planet than play money poker. Just deposit $100 and play 2nl. If you can't afford to do that, then quit poker, because you definitely can't afford to be be playing 2nl for $1 or $2 per hour.



No, what happens is that when people play outside of their limits, the psychological effect of 1 bad beat is so much more devastating. For example, if you have 100 buyins and even lose 5 in a row due to disgusting beats, you'll find a way to laugh it off. Whereas if you have 10 buyins, even losing 1 takes such a huge chunk of your bankroll away.

Just stick to proper BRM. As someone who broke it for ages when I first played, and now very rarely does, I know that not sticking to BRM is one of the biggest obstructions to becoming a profitable player.

Go to the first page and read my first post. The one with all the red. Not going to reiterate what I've already elaborated on in great detail. Your point's (all of them) have all been addressed and then some.

The first paragraph alone agrees with your point as far as the psychological reasons for going bust are concerned and also explains why your misguided, ignorant and ironically contradictory advice in your last paragraph will fail time and time and time again. His results should further prove that your post is a complete waste of time.

BRM is not the one of the biggest obstruction to becoming a profitable player that is the problem, but the lack of will power required to implement it. This is one of the many reasons most poker players play their best poker when their lives are going great away from the tables.

 

[Poker Orifice]

What I've always tried to abide by is: "Forget about the money". Just work on your game & the money will take care of itself.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

What I've always tried to abide by is: "Forget about the money". Just work on your game & the money will take care of itself.

Yeah looking at that $300 really had me thinking about how much MORE money I could make, disgusting for me to even look back at it

 

[Salty Mouse]

I'm still not a good poker player. But after playing a lot online and getting burned out on it and getting away from the game, what brought me back was playing home games for fun with my friends.

It was just something to do as we laughed, had fun, socialized (and of course drank). But that got the strategic poker thinking restoked.

Maybe that's your ticket to "finding the joy" again. Or at least it eventually can be.

 

[soccerrunner8098]

Sorry to hear about your tuff loss OP. Not to grind salt in the wound, but i'm wondering what limits you were playing or what tournaments you were playing that caused such a drastic down turn in a matter of days. Unless you're play a &$#% load of poker everyday, because i'm assuming you were sticking to your proper br management like you wanted to

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Sorry to hear about your tuff loss OP. Not to grind salt in the wound, but i'm wondering what limits you were playing or what tournaments you were playing that caused such a drastic down turn in a matter of days. Unless you're play a &$#% load of poker everyday, because i'm assuming you were sticking to your proper br management like you wanted to

I was playing within my limits, ran terrible for the whole day, and yes I do play a *%&$ load of poker, so I lost a chunk of my BR. Moved up lost another chunk and stayed playing at that level until I lost it all. I never claimed to have stuck to my BR management rules when I went broke.

 

[alaskabill]

OP,

Sorry to hear about your setback. It sounds like you know all too well what you did wrong. The question is how do you fix it? Your problem sounds similar to someone who is trying to diet and they know what foods to eat but they still grab that twinkie. (mmm twinkies ).

Applying what we know can be one of the toughest things when the thing that we need to do is not the thing that we want to do. I don't know you to suggest much other than generic advice but one thing that might help is to read Dusty Schmidts "Treat your Poker Like a Business". It has lots of anti-tilt advice and Leatherass is a real bankroll nit. It might inspire you.

Also, take a break. Sometimes the best thing to do is get away from the game for awhile. Go hang out, read a book, listen to some tunes. Whatever it is that you do to clear your head, do it.

One more thing. When you are ready to play again, you clearly have some poker skills, don't waste your time with freerolls and for God's sake no play money. Deposit some money , manage it like you know how and crush the tables.

Good luck.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Thanks a lot for the support Alaska.

Some might disagree with this but I deposited $10 earlier today, now my BR is at $30.52. Although I almost ran out of hope when I didn't cash in a single $1 game, out of the 6 I played, and was down to $3 and change. I fought back though and am taking another stab at it.

Will be updating this daily.

 

[seanDCFC]

Thanks a lot for the support Alaska.

Some might disagree with this but I deposited $10 earlier today, now my BR is at $30.52. Although I almost ran out of hope when I didn't cash in a single $1 game, out of the 6 I played, and was down to $3 and change. I fought back though and am taking another stab at it.

Will be updating this daily.

Good luck with this pal, Ive done what you did many times. I build a decent roll and blown it all in no time by not sticking to BRM. It a nasty feeling when you blow all your hard work. Ive started to stick to BRM and im starting to see the rewards. I wish you good luck and I will keep an eye out for updates to see how your doing, I wish you all the best.

 

[mrmonkey]

OP,

Sorry to hear about your setback. It sounds like you know all too well what you did wrong. The question is how do you fix it? Your problem sounds similar to someone who is trying to diet and they know what foods to eat but they still grab that twinkie. (mmm twinkies ).

It's interesting you mention a food/diet analogy here -- in researching the genetics of loss chasing there are several reports that have found a link in those who have compulsive eating tendencies with those who chase losses. The key is some chemical which triggers the brain to realize that what they are (over)eating will have consequences down the road -- people missing this trigger do not think about the implied consequences and thus do not properly weigh the consequences of their current actions.

Thanks a lot for the support Alaska.

Some might disagree with this but I deposited $10 earlier today, now my BR is at $30.52. Although I almost ran out of hope when I didn't cash in a single $1 game, out of the 6 I played, and was down to $3 and change. I fought back though and am taking another stab at it.

Will be updating this daily.

Phil, I think it's fine to keep playing if you have the desire to do so and if you analyze the root of your loss-chasing behavior. However, I have a feeling you are playing right now with a bit of a chip on your shoulder. Why are you currently playing poker? Is it for enjoyment and satisfaction? Or is it to make mad monies? If it's mostly for the latter (money) and you are not getting much of the former (enjoyment), in my opinion you need to take a break.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Thanks a lot for the support sean.

And to you Mr.Monkey that is an interesting study but does not apply to me personally cuz I'm a slim dude lol

To answer your question why I play poker- I love poker, i've been playing it for a pretty long time and it never gets boring, and yes I enjoy playing but my main goal is to make serious moniezzzz in the long run.

 

[mrmonkey]

Thanks a lot for the support sean.

And to you Mr.Monkey that is an interesting study but does not apply to me personally cuz I'm a slim dude lol

Compulsive eating doesn't necessarily imply being fat. I know a lot of slim people who have compulsive/binge-type eating habits. They can get away with it because of exercise and/or fast metabolism, or it is a rare occurrence and they are normally very healthy eaters.

The same thing happens in poker. Grind grind grind and stick to BRM for 2-3 months. Then BAM! One day of coolers and suckouts, TILT, then the "binge" hits.

I don't think this type of compulsive/excessive linkage is limited only to eating -- people who are prone to sudden binges or extreme swings of anything be it drinking, video gaming, emotions (anger), sex -- may be more likely to loss chase. People of this nature need to be aware of this and how it affects their poker.

I'm not saying this necessarily applies to you, but just getting it out there as one of the possible things to look at when you analyze some of the triggers that cause your loss chasing sessions. Some people have life situations or genetics which enable them to be emotional steady rocks with their BRM. Some of us are not so fortunate, and for those of us that are not we need to be aware that this is the case and be EXTRA cautious with our BRM discipline.

To answer your question why I play poker- I love poker, i've been playing it for a pretty long time and it never gets boring, and yes I enjoy playing but my main goal is to make serious moniezzzz in the long run.

Good! This is a good response, and it's important you are still having fun while playing.

Regarding making serious moniez in the long term, if you truly and really want to succeed at this goal, IMO you will 100% NEED TO UNDERSTAND AND GAIN CONTROL OF YOUR LOSS CHASING BANKROLL-RESETTING WAYS. Outside of being very lucky, this is the only way to sustain and keep a bankroll growing that will produce usable income for you.

I remember your post about taking controlled shots at the next level up -- while I think this can be a viable strategy for someone who has very good discipline it is apparent you do not yet have this discipline. For this next endeavor, when your bankroll gets to a certain point I would go with a more conservative BRM plan and avoid taking shots that may cause big swings in your bankroll. Swings, both up and down, make loss chasers like us very volatile. Steady as she goes, slow and steady wins the race.

One thing that has helped me tremendously is to plot a month-by-month list of goals for the year. The monthly goals do not focus too much on bankroll growth -- rather, the goals focus more on putting in volume and improving my game and they look more like this:

February - starting bankroll $150

* Play a minimum of 30,000 hands of NLHE 6-max @ NL5 and ONLY NL5
* Play no more than 3 hours of cash ring in any single 24-hour period
* STOP a session anytime I have lost 3 or more buyins.
* Analyze at least 10 hands interesting/big/important hands after each session
* Accrue >$40 in rakeback for the month

* Achieve ironman bronze or silver status @ 50 pts per day
* Play two <$3 MTT per week (no fewer, no more)
* Play at least ten good value freeroll MTT's
* Accrue x number of FTPs and FTPA points, buy at least 10 Step 1 tickets for use in March

* End of month bankroll target: $200-300

By placing more attention on volume/analysis goals and charting a course for the year, it helps me become less results-oriented and more focused on the long-term. I like to look at my monthly goals before and after each session so I can remind myself of what I want to achieve, and to not let negative results bog me down.

Assigning a range for bankroll target is also helpful, because we really can not predict how good or bad we will run during the month. Set it conservatively, so that you can feel good about meeting your goals and seeing your bankroll slowly but surely growing each month.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

Compulsive eating doesn't necessarily imply being fat. I know a lot of slim people who have compulsive/binge-type eating habits. They can get away with it because of exercise and/or fast metabolism, or it is a rare occurrence and they are normally very healthy eaters.

The same thing happens in poker. Grind grind grind and stick to BRM for 2-3 months. Then BAM! One day of coolers and suckouts, TILT, then the "binge" hits.

I don't think this type of compulsive/excessive linkage is limited only to eating -- people who are prone to sudden binges or extreme swings of anything be it drinking, video gaming, emotions (anger), sex -- may be more likely to loss chase. People of this nature need to be aware of this and how it affects their poker.

I'm not saying this necessarily applies to you, but just getting it out there as one of the possible things to look at when you analyze some of the triggers that cause your loss chasing sessions. Some people have life situations or genetics which enable them to be emotional steady rocks with their BRM. Some of us are not so fortunate, and for those of us that are not we need to be aware that this is the case and be EXTRA cautious with our BRM discipline.



Good! This is a good response, and it's important you are still having fun while playing.

Regarding making serious moniez in the long term, if you truly and really want to succeed at this goal, IMO you will 100% NEED TO UNDERSTAND AND GAIN CONTROL OF YOUR LOSS CHASING BANKROLL-RESETTING WAYS. Outside of being very lucky, this is the only way to sustain and keep a bankroll growing that will produce usable income for you.

I remember your post about taking controlled shots at the next level up -- while I think this can be a viable strategy for someone who has very good discipline it is apparent you do not yet have this discipline. For this next endeavor, when your bankroll gets to a certain point I would go with a more conservative BRM plan and avoid taking shots that may cause big swings in your bankroll. Swings, both up and down, make loss chasers like us very volatile. Steady as she goes, slow and steady wins the race.

One thing that has helped me tremendously is to plot a month-by-month list of goals for the year. The monthly goals do not focus too much on bankroll growth -- rather, the goals focus more on putting in volume and improving my game and they look more like this:



By placing more attention on volume/analysis goals and charting a course for the year, it helps me become less results-oriented and more focused on the long-term. I like to look at my monthly goals before and after each session so I can remind myself of what I want to achieve, and to not let negative results bog me down.

Assigning a range for bankroll target is also helpful, because we really can not predict how good or bad we will run during the month. Set it conservatively, so that you can feel good about meeting your goals and seeing your bankroll slowly but surely growing each month.

Well I am slim but I do eat pretty unhealthy. Also sex is good too

Now to your suggestion of setting goals, I kind of like this idea, I think I might do something like this but weekly rather than monthly. Although maybe not things like choosing how many tournaments I can play or anything.

 

[Liveone1]

Good God you just deposited $10 more? Acknowledging the fact that you know this is unacceptable and counterproductive then proceeding along with it anyway is not exactly a recipe for success.

You've gotta know deep down how this will end despite your optimism on the surface. Seeing as, subconsciously, you're aware of this you are already defeated even if you have a nice run or two starting up. Your patterns are the same each and every time.

You have everyone on here telling you not to make this game about the money, so whats wrong with play chips? You know it's your will power thats the problem, so work on it, practice it. That's the point of play money, practice. It's not a waste of time yet people miss the irony in their own advice to you in advising you to forget about the money yet standing firm that saying play chips are a waste of time.

This is because for them the game is subconsciously, probably consciously, about the money directly and they can't imagine honing in on the discipline necessary to grind out the play chips, so you can't or shouldn't either. Again, your sense of urgency and lack of will power are going to be your downfall if you don't nip this in the bud.

There's no hurry to make money it poker. You simply want to enjoy the game and outplay anyone you sit down with. Will power is the only way to make money at poker long term. Fix it from the ground up dude, with a $10 deposit you'rejust adding fuel to the fire.

 

[TheKAAHK]

PI, I think I know what a problem for you might be as I've faced a similar problem last summer: You're trying too hard.

I know it may sound foolish and counterintuitive, but I believe as it has plagued me, it is plaguing you as well.

What I mean is, you are trying your best, playing your heart out, thinking through every decision, every action, but at the same time you are trying to make things happen a certain way. Subconsciously forcing them, if you will. And when things don't go the way you envisioned and planned (even if it is only subconscious) you try even harder, which only makes things worse.

What I did to overcome this was take a break for a few days. Not just form playing, but from everything poker related. When I came back, I made a mental effort to just play. Not try to outwit or out think, not try to make money or keep from losing money, but just play and take each hand as a new experience. Have patience and eventually you will find your game again. It will be a slow start, but eventually the money aspect (ie: profit) will come again.

A wise old indian once told me "Flow like water, bend like birch. Water always finds it's level if left it's own devices. It takes years, but water can break rock, and forge the path it wants. Birch do not break under pressure. Other trees break in strong wind because they do not bend, they fight, and that fight leaves them rotting on the ground. A birch bends, a birch embraces the wind so it may keep standing tall and proud."

Ok, I can see how this sounds hokey and mystic, but if you think about it, it can apply to your mental state as it pertains to poker. It helped me, mayhaps it can help you as well.


EDIT: Good god, I gotta stop making serious posts when I'm this tired.... Upon re-reading this it doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me, and I wrote it... Maybe it will make sense to somebody...

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

KAAHK it does make sense and sounds like a good idea, I agree I think that definitely was and has been my problem.

Update is this- sent $25 to a guy for a transfer from FT to PS, he said he was a member of 2+2 and saw my request that I had made for this transaction, I had no problem sending to him after looking at his stats and seeing he recently cashed for over $100 on PS. I sent him the money and didn't get anything in return, I saw him playing with it later in rush poker, he scammed me for sure. This is pretty devestating as now my bankroll is at $2.04

His name on FT is Fatboy1 and supposedly on PS as msduhflop

Seriously don't know what to do now, i'm not gonna deposit again, but now i'm nearly broke and this isn't even my fault. I contacted FT and they told me their was nothing they could do. It's sickening, FML.

 

[Liveone1]

At frist I thought you wanted to improve, so I genuinely to help. But, since you insist on making the same mistakes repeatedly (refusing to acknowledge sound advice), I can see you just enjoy attention and self loathing and anyone who will help you indulge so I'm laughing at you. You can't be taken seriously.

Now I see why when people make it to the top they don't bother to help others and look down on the rest of us. lol what a joke.

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

At frist I thought you wanted to improve, so I genuinely to help. But, since you insist on making the same mistakes repeatedly (refusing to acknowledge sound advice), I can see you just enjoy attention and self loathing and anyone who will help you indulge so I'm laughing at you. You can't be taken seriously.

Now I see why when people make it to the top they don't bother to help others and look down on the rest of us. lol what a joke.

What are you talking about?

Because I made a $10 deposit for one last try and now am rebuilding?

You seriously need to relax dude, I am taking in everyones advice and have gotten some really good advice at that, just because I may not necessarily be going down the path that you think doesn't mean you need to go tryna attack me so chill out

 

[-Phil Ivey27]

It ends up the guy who scammed me is pretty infamous for scamming people, lucky me because Full Tilt said they could only take action if they find other actions such as this by this guy. 2+2 forum provided me with links of people claiming to be scammed by him and I sent everything into Full Tilt and they said they will investigate, I am expecting my $25 back.

Update is this- Some guy who read what happened to me on 2+2 felt bad and gave me $15 on Full Tilt, extremely nice of him. I built that up to $30 now and am transferring $25 of it over to pokerstars.

 

[alaskabill]

Good luck with the rebuild mode. Ignore non constructive criticism. You've had some poker related issues and you came to CC which is all about helping each other get better. If you fail at something like BRM try again until you resolve the issue.

Just because someone gets advice and has trouble following it perfectly does not mean that they are not trying to improve or that they should be attacked in the forum. We all have our poker issues and I don't think anyone here (DTB coaches excepted) is crushing it so much that they can ridicule others for shortcomings that they are trying to fix.



Good luck and keep us updated.

 

[jjbish]

Liv, no disrespect to you but I've held this too long.

There is a HUGE difference between play money and real money!. HUGE! EVEn .1/.2 there is no comparison.

I'm getting ready to get ivy27 on skype and put an end to his issues. Maybe it will help , maybe it wont. But I think I can see what some of the things have resulted from.

Have to be very weary of scammers too. poker is more than just sitting at an open seat and playing!

 

[GTaddei]

I hear you, brother.
If that makes u feel better, remember that u r not by yourself.
Amen.

 

[JOEBOB69]

It ends up the guy who scammed me is pretty infamous for scamming people, lucky me because Full Tilt said they could only take action if they find other actions such as this by this guy. 2+2 forum provided me with links of people claiming to be scammed by him and I sent everything into Full Tilt and they said they will investigate, I am expecting my $25 back.

Update is this- Some guy who read what happened to me on 2+2 felt bad and gave me $15 on Full Tilt, extremely nice of him. I built that up to $30 now and am transferring $25 of it over to Pokerstars.

Not tring to tell ya what to do but if i was you soon as i hit $50 assuming you do.I would ship this gentleman $25 st8 away and give him much praise.